Rival Championship!
- Thread starter Boyle
- Start date
bogaTYR said:
I think you're confusing MPs and their expenses there, boga. But since you're not in the UK you might not have heard about that one!
Boyle99 said:
If we do that then Max has won, surely!
Ignoring personalities, politics and money :-
If you run any business, the minute you get an investor, financier or sponsor the first thing you are required to provide is a five year plan, as you grow, a ten year outlook....
Under current FIA governance every team is effectively having to treat each season as a new entry, the regulations are changing under too short notice and too materially for them to behave in a professional way to their owners/financiers/sponsors;
Where else can they go other than a new series unless the FIA behave in a manner that enables them to take part whilst carrying out their 3rd party obligations?
If you run any business, the minute you get an investor, financier or sponsor the first thing you are required to provide is a five year plan, as you grow, a ten year outlook....
Under current FIA governance every team is effectively having to treat each season as a new entry, the regulations are changing under too short notice and too materially for them to behave in a professional way to their owners/financiers/sponsors;
Where else can they go other than a new series unless the FIA behave in a manner that enables them to take part whilst carrying out their 3rd party obligations?
bogaTYR
Points Scorer
for the sake of the argument, here are some of the numbers we are talking about.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... CyOzVuoWmY
after reading this, one worders what the business model of any breakaway series can be. or to put it a bit simply: in a world of dropping revenues, where do you get the money from?
in another article, F1 stated it needed 550 mil to break even. currently F1 generates around 4.5 bil per year. from the article above we can establish that CVC needs 230 mil per year to service its F1 related debts. Formula One Group had according to the FT a turnover of roughtly 600 mil in 2007 in television rights money, grand prix-hosting fees, trackside advertising and corporate hospitality. if all of the income of FOG comes from the revenue F1 generates, then this would amount to about 15%. so FOM gets 15% of the revenue F1 generates. the prize money for the teams in the WCC is about 250 mil.
by 8 teams leaving, the revenue of F1 drops with 2.2 bil. thats 275 million per team. one can deduct from that F1 revenue comes from several sources: central revenues (from broadcasting, race and track side sponsorship and corporate hospitality), team revenues (including sponsorship and contributions from their commercial partners and owners) and circuit revenues (from grand prix hosting fees and certain sponsorships).
so i slowly am losing the plot. cos it seems the money issues the teams are talking about are far less then i would have expected. if the teams want a bigger slice of the TV revenues, then surely this is not a matter of hundreds of millions, but much more tens of millions. even if the teams want a bigger slice of anything, its still in the tens of millions. but the budgets of the teams are much higher then that, also, the larger teams (ferrari and macca) are known to get more money from TV rights then smaller teams.
so whats the point? the financial gain seems to be limited. and another point: what can a rival series do better?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... CyOzVuoWmY
after reading this, one worders what the business model of any breakaway series can be. or to put it a bit simply: in a world of dropping revenues, where do you get the money from?
in another article, F1 stated it needed 550 mil to break even. currently F1 generates around 4.5 bil per year. from the article above we can establish that CVC needs 230 mil per year to service its F1 related debts. Formula One Group had according to the FT a turnover of roughtly 600 mil in 2007 in television rights money, grand prix-hosting fees, trackside advertising and corporate hospitality. if all of the income of FOG comes from the revenue F1 generates, then this would amount to about 15%. so FOM gets 15% of the revenue F1 generates. the prize money for the teams in the WCC is about 250 mil.
by 8 teams leaving, the revenue of F1 drops with 2.2 bil. thats 275 million per team. one can deduct from that F1 revenue comes from several sources: central revenues (from broadcasting, race and track side sponsorship and corporate hospitality), team revenues (including sponsorship and contributions from their commercial partners and owners) and circuit revenues (from grand prix hosting fees and certain sponsorships).
so i slowly am losing the plot. cos it seems the money issues the teams are talking about are far less then i would have expected. if the teams want a bigger slice of the TV revenues, then surely this is not a matter of hundreds of millions, but much more tens of millions. even if the teams want a bigger slice of anything, its still in the tens of millions. but the budgets of the teams are much higher then that, also, the larger teams (ferrari and macca) are known to get more money from TV rights then smaller teams.
so whats the point? the financial gain seems to be limited. and another point: what can a rival series do better?
Yet more details emerge about the FIA-FOTA split.
Let's wait and see what happens on Wednesday at the FIA World Council meeting.
More here: Twists and turns of breakaway row emerge
On the face of it, it would seem it's Mosley who is misleading everyone about the situation, what has gone on and even the rules and regulations for next season.
Let's wait and see what happens on Wednesday at the FIA World Council meeting.
More here: Twists and turns of breakaway row emerge
The BBC F1 mole has done some good stuff there - and I believe him.
A mole catching a weasel? Is David Attenbrough around?
On a more serious note, this would tip any loony over the edge. This may be why the loony squad turn stuff down in the office, Max... [glow=#4444FF:3bfzxtoh]you changing the details of the contract![/glow:3bfzxtoh] You don't have to be loonies to be upset about that?
Do we believe Whitmarsh when he says FOM haven't paid McLaren. Or is this probably a 2007 thing!
jenov2003 said:
A mole catching a weasel? Is David Attenbrough around?
On a more serious note, this would tip any loony over the edge. This may be why the loony squad turn stuff down in the office, Max... [glow=#4444FF:3bfzxtoh]you changing the details of the contract![/glow:3bfzxtoh] You don't have to be loonies to be upset about that?
Do we believe Whitmarsh when he says FOM haven't paid McLaren. Or is this probably a 2007 thing!
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
Rebel/FOTA 2010 calendar leaked
Mixed thoughts about this. Firstly, yay for Mexico, Montreal and Adelaide, but boo for Buenos Aires, Magny-Cours and Lausitzring.
Secondly, if this is genuine, then it's very much a head-on car crash waiting to happen with the FIA schedules, although you'd have to assume that (despite was was said over the weekend) Silverstone, Monza and Monaco won't be hosting FIA F1 races next year.
Mixed thoughts about this. Firstly, yay for Mexico, Montreal and Adelaide, but boo for Buenos Aires, Magny-Cours and Lausitzring.
Secondly, if this is genuine, then it's very much a head-on car crash waiting to happen with the FIA schedules, although you'd have to assume that (despite was was said over the weekend) Silverstone, Monza and Monaco won't be hosting FIA F1 races next year.
I'm not convinced this is genuine.
It was originally credited by Crash.net as coming from The Guardian but there's no mention of it on their website.
On the face of it, it looks interesting but too many street circuits for my liking and no Spa which is a shame
Monaco has already said they will go with Ferrari and as they're not contracted to the FIA/FOM then there's no issue there although it could affect the original F1 support races.
The full Calendar is as follows:
Meanwhile in other news......Max has claimed his "loonies" comment was a joke and the legal action has been suspended.
Perhaps he realised the FIA didn't have a leg to stand on with regards to contracts considering they broke the "secret" contract with Ferrari first
I see Bernie has finally spoken up, stating that he is "not going to let things disintegrate over what is, in the end, basically nothing".
It was originally credited by Crash.net as coming from The Guardian but there's no mention of it on their website.
On the face of it, it looks interesting but too many street circuits for my liking and no Spa which is a shame
Monaco has already said they will go with Ferrari and as they're not contracted to the FIA/FOM then there's no issue there although it could affect the original F1 support races.
The full Calendar is as follows:
Meanwhile in other news......Max has claimed his "loonies" comment was a joke and the legal action has been suspended.
Perhaps he realised the FIA didn't have a leg to stand on with regards to contracts considering they broke the "secret" contract with Ferrari first
I see Bernie has finally spoken up, stating that he is "not going to let things disintegrate over what is, in the end, basically nothing".
Brogan said:I'm not convinced this is genuine.
It was originally credited by Crash.net as coming from The Guardian but there's no mention of it on their website.
On the face of it, it looks interesting but too many street circuits for my liking and no Spa which is a shame
Monaco has already said they will go with Ferrari and as they're not contracted to the FIA/FOM then there's no issue there although it could affect the original F1 support races.
The full Calendar is as follows:
Meanwhile in other news......Max has claimed his "loonies" comment was a joke and the legal action has been suspended.
Perhaps he realised the FIA didn't have a leg to stand on with regards to contracts considering they broke the "secret" contract with Ferrari first
I see Bernie has finally spoken up, stating that he is "not going to let things disintegrate over what is, in the end, basically nothing".
Essentially the main circuits from a historical point of view are Silverstone, Monza, Monte Carlo and Spa! This has got 3/4!
A Finnish GP should be a good idea - they've got Raikkonen, Kovalainen and half of Rosberg to cheer on! Magny-Cours is important seeing as any series needs a French GP which I'm sure you'll all want to be quizzed on at length.
The loonies comment was not a joke, Max. Jake Humphrey laughed because he could see his interview had gone really well for TV. I mean he's hardly a hardline reporter, imagine what Max would have said if Paxman was interviewing him (or Eddie Jordan based on that Bernie interview!)
Lets hope Flavio doesn't catch swine flu in Mexico
All the reports that have been on radio/TV so far have suggested that FOTA are meeting on Thursday to finalise a calendar and develop regulations etc. So maybe this list of GP is speculation.
My two cents....
Argentina - Always remember this one not being that popular with the drivers as it had loads of bumps and was pretty ancient unless it's been upgraded.
Mexico - I remember the Mexican GPs always being quite exciting but maybe that's because the last one was such a long while ago. Would look forward to seeing racing here.
Jerez - Not a bad track and scene of one of Schueys best races (the one where he was stuck in 5th gear for the final third of the race - 1996 I think?)
Imola - A known quantity
Monaco - Would give a lot of cred to a new series in many fans eyes. (not one of my faves though)
Montreal - Bernie really shot himself in the foot by not letting this one go. Great Circuit - Wall of champions and all.
Indy - Take out the romance of the name and there are far better circuits in the USA. I would be dissapointed if the race ended up back here. To see F1 back at long beach would be so much better.
Silverstone - This depends on who can sign a deal first and where they are with Donny. I would love Brands back.
Magny-Cours - Hmmm, It's just not a great track. The trouble is Bernie owns Paul Ricard. Any one know if you can still race at Dijion ??
Monza - Again a known quantity, little more.
UAE and Singapore - Obviously for the cash? Aren't these tracks already on long contracts with FOM?
Suzuka - Great track and much better than Fuji.
Adelaide - Yes, Yes, Yes - Surfers Paradise - Only saw it in Cart but looks ok.
Any new tracks are always welcome providing they add something.
Big wasted opportunities for me would be not going to Spa, Not going to Kyalami and not picking a better track in the USA.
Having said all that, I think I'd wait for an official announcement from FOTA.
And having said all that, all that, I don't like the idea of a breakaway, I don't support a breakaway and at the end of the day I don't think there will be a breakaway.
My two cents....
Argentina - Always remember this one not being that popular with the drivers as it had loads of bumps and was pretty ancient unless it's been upgraded.
Mexico - I remember the Mexican GPs always being quite exciting but maybe that's because the last one was such a long while ago. Would look forward to seeing racing here.
Jerez - Not a bad track and scene of one of Schueys best races (the one where he was stuck in 5th gear for the final third of the race - 1996 I think?)
Imola - A known quantity
Monaco - Would give a lot of cred to a new series in many fans eyes. (not one of my faves though)
Montreal - Bernie really shot himself in the foot by not letting this one go. Great Circuit - Wall of champions and all.
Indy - Take out the romance of the name and there are far better circuits in the USA. I would be dissapointed if the race ended up back here. To see F1 back at long beach would be so much better.
Silverstone - This depends on who can sign a deal first and where they are with Donny. I would love Brands back.
Magny-Cours - Hmmm, It's just not a great track. The trouble is Bernie owns Paul Ricard. Any one know if you can still race at Dijion ??
Monza - Again a known quantity, little more.
UAE and Singapore - Obviously for the cash? Aren't these tracks already on long contracts with FOM?
Suzuka - Great track and much better than Fuji.
Adelaide - Yes, Yes, Yes - Surfers Paradise - Only saw it in Cart but looks ok.
Any new tracks are always welcome providing they add something.
Big wasted opportunities for me would be not going to Spa, Not going to Kyalami and not picking a better track in the USA.
Having said all that, I think I'd wait for an official announcement from FOTA.
And having said all that, all that, I don't like the idea of a breakaway, I don't support a breakaway and at the end of the day I don't think there will be a breakaway.
Agree with you on Indy, not a great circuit; too much US and not enough A.
Dijon-Prenois is still used for minor local races but I'm not sure it could cut the mustard in a premier F1 type event.
Marina Bay is contracted to 2012, Yas Marina for 2009 only so that one is possible.
Dijon-Prenois is still used for minor local races but I'm not sure it could cut the mustard in a premier F1 type event.
Marina Bay is contracted to 2012, Yas Marina for 2009 only so that one is possible.
It has to be Dijon for a FOTA backed race.
Even the outline of the circuit looks like FOTA are trying to send a message to the FIA/FOM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijon-Prenois
(come on, look at it........
)
Even the outline of the circuit looks like FOTA are trying to send a message to the FIA/FOM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijon-Prenois
(come on, look at it........
)
My verdict:
Good! Make them work for a living!
Mexico City - as long as the disease clears up.
Jerez de la Frontera - that'd annoy the FIA - its still banned, no?
Portimao - Portugal seems like it needs a GP - we must find the new Monteiro!
Imola - we called for traditional tracks and we'll have to have the other edge of that sword too!
My feelings on Monaco are well documented elsewhere on this forum.
Montreal - this is the clincher, and it won't clash with the World Cup. Get out the vuvuzelas!
Indy - I don't mind Indy tbh, attritional for sure
Silverstone - The BRDC are about to screw Bernie over for once!
Magny-Cours - There must be a French GP somewhere!
Lausitzring - ??? - its in Germany so should be Vetteled
Helsinki - there might be a fanbase in Finland, you know!
Monza - nowt wrong with Monza, if the FIA don't have Monza they don't have F1!
Abu Dhabi - ask me in November
Singapore - strange one, thought it was an FIA shoo-in - lights up my night
Suzuka - sounds good to me but I prefer Fuji
And the Aussie GP to finish with for Mark Webber's coronation
, could it be better?
I'm quite happy with that, although "sod Monaco" is, as always, my message! NO VALENCIA OR HUNGARORING!!!
They were innocent times when they raced in Dijon!
cider_and_toast said:
Good! Make them work for a living!
Mexico City - as long as the disease clears up.
Jerez de la Frontera - that'd annoy the FIA - its still banned, no?
Portimao - Portugal seems like it needs a GP - we must find the new Monteiro!
Imola - we called for traditional tracks and we'll have to have the other edge of that sword too!
My feelings on Monaco are well documented elsewhere on this forum.
Montreal - this is the clincher, and it won't clash with the World Cup. Get out the vuvuzelas!
Indy - I don't mind Indy tbh, attritional for sure
Silverstone - The BRDC are about to screw Bernie over for once!
Magny-Cours - There must be a French GP somewhere!
Lausitzring - ??? - its in Germany so should be Vetteled
Helsinki - there might be a fanbase in Finland, you know!
Monza - nowt wrong with Monza, if the FIA don't have Monza they don't have F1!
Abu Dhabi - ask me in November
Singapore - strange one, thought it was an FIA shoo-in - lights up my night
Suzuka - sounds good to me but I prefer Fuji
And the Aussie GP to finish with for Mark Webber's coronation
, could it be better?I'm quite happy with that, although "sod Monaco" is, as always, my message! NO VALENCIA OR HUNGARORING!!!
They were innocent times when they raced in Dijon!
cider_and_toast said:
If there absolutely has to be a breakaway series then that HAS to be the new logo!
Personally, I hope there won't be a breakaway.
Two series would be doomed to failure. Fingers crossed 'the Bernie' can broker a deal. Bored of this now...
I doubt this is genuine but Potrero would be my shout for an Argentinian GP! It is a fantastic circuit from what I've seen so far. I'm sure there is a link on this website somewhere, thanks to Brogan .
That really should be the season opener if the breakaway does occur!
.cider_and_toast said:
That really should be the season opener if the breakaway does occur!
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
At last!
Good news and good for the sport.
I wonder what FOTA, the FIA and Bernie agreed on with regards to prize money, budget caps, medals and all the rest of the rules?
I suppose we'll find out later.
The best outcome of all, especially now that Max will be gone* after this season.
I wonder who will replace him?
And was he pushed or did he jump?
The WMSC meeting was today so what are the odds he was quietly asked to step down for the good of F1 and the FIA?
* Assuming of course he doesn't renege on the deal, wonder if FOTA have it written into the contract?
Good news and good for the sport.
I wonder what FOTA, the FIA and Bernie agreed on with regards to prize money, budget caps, medals and all the rest of the rules?
I suppose we'll find out later.
The best outcome of all, especially now that Max will be gone* after this season.
I wonder who will replace him?
And was he pushed or did he jump?
The WMSC meeting was today so what are the odds he was quietly asked to step down for the good of F1 and the FIA?
* Assuming of course he doesn't renege on the deal, wonder if FOTA have it written into the contract?
That's all good... scrap the FOTA calendar!
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