Grand Prix 2019 Spanish Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Il_leone

Champion Elect
Publius Cornelius Scipio Except they aint running the team properly .. its more "It aint my problem its his problem "mentality at Ferrari

Most of the chiefs are Italian, the main designer is Italian and the team principal is Italian
They all want to be in charge except at the crucial moments they go awol or duck out
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
Half the time Ferrari does seem to be indecisive especially when their drivers are refusing to budge saying their faster and just holding each other up

Baku - Le Clerc could have and should have got pole - why send him out on tyres which are colder and risk crashing which he did

What should be a great battle between Ferrari and Mercedes is looking a serious thrashing . Its too early to say whitewash but surely Ferrari are not going to end up not winning a race this season?
 

Izumi

Banned
Seems to be some stereotyping going on here.
I would rather suggest a lot of rude and off the wall comments going on. To denigrate Italian mind as we read on these pages is at the high school level trolling, if not borderline racist.

People are ignoring how we got to this point. To me it rather looks like teams have not yet fully recovered from doldrums imposed upon teams by regulatory, police like cuffs in 2014. It is continuing struggle to catch the front team. Mercedes was, is, and for a wile will be at the front due to having luxury of improving what was already well designed car. Ferrari and others are still correcting errors of the past, of which Allison was certainly part off, speaking about Ferrari. Teams cannot test, and then when race is on, then they are learning what they have done (wrong again). Empirical, just as systematic development is way of life for the engineer, however it doesn't mean they are inept. Pushing borders poses acceptable risk of being wrong.

Late introduction of a new tire late in a season, and after the car is designed in vacuum is of course not solving anything. Not for fans, and not for the team, and corrective measures undertaken during a season are costly, as I suspect, in more than just in one frontline. We could speak whether F1 is actually managed well letting this go on for so long.
 
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I would rather suggest a lot of rude and off the wall comments going on. To denigrate Italian mind as we read on these pages is at the high school level trolling, if not borderline racist.

People are ignoring how we got to this point. To me it rather looks like teams have not yet fully recovered from doldrums imposed upon teams by regulatory, police like cuffs in 2014. It is continuing struggle to catch the front team. Mercedes was, is, and for a wile will be at the front due to having luxury of improving what was already well designed car. Ferrari and others are still correcting errors of the past, of which Allison was certainly part off, speaking about Ferrari. Teams cannot test, and then when race is on, then they are learning what they have done (wrong again). Empirical, just as systematic development is way of life for the engineer, however it doesn't mean they are inept. Pushing borders poses acceptable risk of being wrong.

Late introduction of a new tire late in a season, and after the car is designed in vacuum is of course not solving anything. Not for fans, and not for the team, and corrective measures undertaken during a season are costly, as I suspect, in more than just in one frontline. We could speak whether F1 is actually managed well letting this go on for so long.
my friend thanks for the first sentence.

And finally a sensible post about how F1 as a whole got to this stage (and why things are not improving)
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
is F1 in crisis is all i can think. because i dont blame the dominant team in because they have a great job produced a great car. been abit lucky bit opportunistic & in 3 races clearly better. & like guy called Phil taylor said when he was in process of making 14 straight world championship finals & losing 1 game between 1995 & 2006. its not my job to come down their level, its their job to come up to mine. but if mercedes keep going & we get into the dark days of 2004 & 2013. then you about viewing figures because (in the uk) whose going to pay £120 a yr for a forgone conclusion

these rules were almost brought in to stop red bull/vettel domination. i disagree its James Allison fault. its Ferrari impatience that cost them 1 of the best designers on the grid. he proved it with lotus under a tight budget & proving it with mercedes & ferrari handed him to their biggest rivals to get better he could only design 1 car & they sacked him mid season of same season. but i do agree with testing think of 2009 when McLaren could test & find 2 secs over a season Lewis Hamilton went from out in Q1 in Australia to winning in hungary. but this all comes back to money. the teams arent interested in budget caps so you they have tried reducing budgets in the wrong way including stopping testing & when in reality they have spiralled out of control i said 2017 the top 3 team spent a collective billion which worked out for 8m for 1 car in 1 weekend. the hybrids that were demanded by the teams have been a disaster especially as Horner said its cheaper to run the V8 all season than to run restricted 3 power units a season
 

Angel

🧸
Contributor
But surely the rules are to blame. I don't claim to understand them all, someone else is going to have to help me out here, but didn't they bring in an engine development freeze, so once Mercedes had the best engine there is simply no way anyone else can get to their level?

That is how I understand it anyway, I could be wrong, (it wouldn't be the first time). If that is the case though Ferrari are always going to be on the back foot.

Ferrari have made some errors, actually quite a few errors to be fair, but some of that is smelling to me like desperation, just as it is/was with Vettel. I get the feeling the whole team really don't know what else to do in order to win, so they're trying things that just won't work which is making matters worse. It's not an Italian thing, or me having a dig at Ferrari, no way. Hell my two current favourite drivers on the grid drive for them, I am equally as desperate to see them do well. They just seem to be floundering for whatever reason and that makes me really sad. On paper they should be winning races and they're not, now if someone could just wave their magic wand and make clear what it is they need to do in order for that to happen, I'd be very grateful!
 
i disagree its James Allison fault. its Ferrari impatience that cost them 1 of the best designers on the grid.
I wonder when someone here will claim that Ferrari is at fault for climate change, for famine in Africa and for terrorism, seriously sometimes I think that we are talking about the devil itself

James Allison needed to spend time with his children after the loss of his wife, how do you suppose that he could have continued to work in Italy when his children where in England? unless of course you blame Ferrari for not relocating to England
 
But surely the rules are to blame.
If the rules are designed to stifle competition it looks obvious to me that the rules are a significant part of the problem. Mercedes did a great job but let's not forget that they started working on the current PU nearly two years before they imposed such rules on all the rest, so everyone else was 2 years behind. The fact that since the beginning of the PU here the pecking order hasn't changed IMHO speaks volumes about how the rules have impacted F1, in a sense they have been designed to prevent the runner up to catch the leading car, and as a matter of fact this is what has happened (despite claims that Ferrari had the best car and that it's Vettel's falut, or the Italians fault, if they didn't win).

Without constantly rewriting the rules the other teams would have probably been able to close the gap, same for testing, if yopu ban testing you ban improvements. And I'm not even going into the tokens system

Mercedes built a very good package but their record before the current set of rules was implemented wasn't great, maybe the fact that they came up with such rules (something that to my knowledge no ones has contested) has some impact on the end results.

So IMHO Mercedes greatest achivement was not building a great PU and a strong car, it was having the power and the ability for force a set of rules that they had designed, that they had started working well ahead of the competition, and to top it all up to force rules specifically designed to stifle competition.
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
I wonder when someone here will claim that Ferrari is at fault for climate change, for famine in Africa and for terrorism, seriously sometimes I think that we are talking about the devil itself

James Allison needed to spend time with his children after the loss of his wife, how do you suppose that he could have continued to work in Italy when his children where in England? unless of course you blame Ferrari for not relocating to England
Sergio Marchionne gets realistic and admits 2016 F1 season a failure for Ferrari

Screenshot_20190514-230747.jpg
 

RasputinLives

So Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
Contributor
It's interesting to hear the dominance of Ferrari in the early 00s and Red Bull in the early teenies called the dark days. Mercedes current period of dominance is actually far more prolonged and far superior in terms of results and time gap then either of those two periods. 5 1-2s in a row is pretty unheard of. If you go back to 1988 McLaren won every race but one and this season is starting to feel a bit like that.

What's the solution? I don't know. Merc have built the best car and have the best driver. You can point to the larger budget in relation to most of the field but Ferrari can match them for budget but just seen incapable of matching them on the track. Whatever is going on in the sport I find it kind of weird to say that F1 was only the 5th most interesting single seater Motorsport series I watched this weekend!
 

Izumi

Banned
Cause & Effect has been discussed. Problem is, people are ignoring it, but there is a solution if it is wanted. With respect to best driver note, I would submit proposition that there are currently another 5 to 7 drivers on the grid who would look just as good in the same car, especially when competition is being held back for a decade or more by inept and anti-competitive regulations. Commercial rights holder and FiA should have been in courts over that long time ago. (And NO, it is not all about size of the annual budget.) Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus as a greatest strategist of his era has this point right.
 
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RasputinLives

So Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
Contributor
I think there are 7 drivers on the grid who would be winning like Hamilton is but I'm not sure about achieving the level of dominance. Hamilton's consistency and form over last 12 months or more is hard to argue with. Yes I know a lack of pressure probably helps but still wouldn't get against him currently.

As for other stuff mentioned. I shrug my shoulders and stick my hands out because purely and simply I don't know. Nor do I think anyone can really claim to have a solid answer to it all who isn't in the inner workings. Problem is the inner workings seem to be more dedicated to trying to convince us what we're watching is fantastic rather than actually making it fantastic. PR over substance.
 

vintly

Mostly bacon
Premium Contributor
My photos aren't so great but here's a couple of videos with a bit of editing. Our position really shows how badly turn one affected the Ferraris, what a mess. And shows how Hammy was the only one to get the line through 1 and 2 bang on.

 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
It's interesting to hear the dominance of Ferrari in the early 00s and Red Bull in the early teenies called the dark days.
they were the dark days & dont get me wrong in my post im every bit as scathing comparing this to the them days but I dont blame Mercedes they arent ones making the rules
 

Angel

🧸
Contributor
vintly Great footage :thumbsup: thanks for sharing that. It sort of shows Seb almost backing right out of it, compared to the other cars he seems to pretty much stop. I'm not sure whether he should have done that or pushed on, if he had there could well have been contact I guess and it was better to survive and fight on later.
 

Izumi

Banned
I think there are 7 drivers on the grid who would be winning like Hamilton is but I'm not sure about achieving the level of dominance. Hamilton's consistency and form over last 12 months or more is hard to argue with. Yes I know a lack of pressure probably helps but still wouldn't get against him currently.

As for other stuff mentioned. I shrug my shoulders and stick my hands out because purely and simply I don't know. Nor do I think anyone can really claim to have a solid answer to it all who isn't in the inner workings. Problem is the inner workings seem to be more dedicated to trying to convince us what we're watching is fantastic rather than actually making it fantastic. PR over substance.
I beg to disagree. Comparing hybrid era with any "dynasties" of the past is totally off the mark. (Subject already has been discussed on this forum.)

People who are working (or worked) in industrial operations have pretty accurate, even if not direct, understanding how a car (here a prototype) is made, how long it takes, and what it takes. It might be a black box to an outsider, but not to everyone who is outside of the paddock. Normative references and product development with testing is pretty much rudimentary science in ENG101. F1 is no different. This is not just an empty whistling into wind. Some fans understand advantage Mercedes holds over its competitors, and it is not level playing field on technical side as far as this fan is concerned. (Internat budget is again something else, but that's in my mind secondary factor.)
 
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