Grand Prix 2019 Russian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Onwards to Sochi in one of those frustrating season where we do have three teams in the mix for wins but somehow we have absolutely no title fight kicking off whatsoever. Hamilton has not even had to do his usual post summer blitz to get his massive title lead but has merely gone into Alain Prost mode where he just picks up podiums and consistant results whilst the others go up and down. His nearest rival is his own team mate and he is being anchored down by his own team from challenging Lewis because they are scared of their drivers getting in each others way and giving wins away to Red Bull and Ferrari. So Lewis is laughing and two and half race wins in front in the championship.

So no title fight but we are getting good racing for once. If Ferrari had not messed up so badly with set up and strategy at the begining of the season then it's clear they would have been in contention with Merc, certainly with LeClerc anyways. After Charlie boy was politically swindled out of his third win in a row last time out I'm fully expecting him to drive angry in Russia, which was something he did often in his GP3 and F3 days. It is impressively fast but often ends with a smash. His illustrious team mate has been a shadow of his former self all year but suddenly turned up when he hasn't all year at Singapore. If we ignore the strategy swindle you have to say Vettel had an impressive weekend and drove beautifully. The worrying thing for him was though that even on form he only beat his young team mate via strategy rather than pace. It's possible the win might inspire a revival though. I genuinely hope so as would love to see an on form Vettel mixing it with Hamilton, LeClerc and Verstappen.

Speaking of Max I'm giving his own paragraph to officially doth my cap to him. All year he has been consistently fast, he's had race craft, he's had guile and he has basically looked like the complete racing driver. This is something i've never seen before and often wondered if I would see. Don't get me wrong I always knew he was a fantastic driver on his day but now I see he can do it over a season. Respects to you sir.

Away from the main contenders I'm paying close attention to some of the midfield drivers at the moment as there is a change in the wind. The much maligned Antonio Giovanazzi has found a lot of pace since the summer break. Whilst he has a tendency to get into an accident and not get the results from it the old adage is that it's better to have a fast driver that crashes than a slow driver who plays it safe. Maybe it's time we reassessed him. Similarly we might need to have a look at Piere Gasly too. Before the season started the media decided the story was that Gasly was under pressure and might be dropped. Low and behold it happened! However he is now at Torro Rosso and has had some quality drives (Singapore was probably his best drive in F1) whilst his replacement at Red Bull Albon has not really got much better result than Piere did. Maybe Gasly is going to show he is a capable driver just that most people going head to head with Max Verstappen are going to look ordinary.

So that's the runners and riders but what of Sochi? Well unfortunately it's a pretty dull track with one really good corner. I think last year it may have had no overtakes at all. However it's very harsh to blame the circuit because some of the best GP2 and GP3 races I have ever seen have been held he where the cars were three wide going through turn 3 on nearly every lap. So will the racing improve with the front teams now closer? Maybe. Unfortunately we won't have the Singapore effect where the middle teams are brought close enough to the action to influence it but we may get a few fiesty moves.

Who is going to win? Well I'll let you guys debate that but how about this? Have the rubles been put down by the great Bear hunter? Will we suddenly see the track clear and a certain Dani Kvyat come to the front to complete one of greatest F1 comebacks of all time? I'd love to see that race so let's hope so!
 
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Well thank you for coming on this site to point out the error of our ways. Actually Publius Cornelius Scipio if you bother to read through many posts you'll find some of the people you are referring too have always championed Sebastian Vettel but just do not think he is infallible and justify everything be does. I think you may have mistaken 'Vettel hating' for people disliking being told what they should and should not think.

It does make me was that some members of this forum can no longer look at things in a rational manner and have to accuse others of prejudice just because they do not agree with them. As a member of 9 years this is something very very new.

on the one hand I have seen that you rate Vettel very highly, I saw just now your post on the silly season thread. On the other I still think that a certain dislike of Vettel comes across very cleartly in some messages. And every time Vettel does something, good or bad, IMHO things always get a bit ott, I get the feeling that unless one claims that Vettel is a bad sport then one becomes a rather unwelcome guest here. I find this hard because I don't follow F1 to cheer for a given driver, once I might be happy when Hamilton wins, next time I might be happy if Leclerc does well, etc., the same applies to teams.

As per dislikng being told what people should and should not think it's interesting that you write this as it's exactly how I feel when I read some of the earlier posts, funny isn't it?
 
It does make me was that some members of this forum can no longer look at things in a rational manner and have to accuse others of prejudice just because they do not agree with them. As a member of 9 years this is something very very new.

I don't think that asking why the same behaviour gets treated in different manners based on the name of the culprit can be defined as "prejudice just because they do not agree with them". As a matter of fact I fail to understand why a very simple question should offend you so much, I really don't get why what Vettel did at Sochi is bad and what Leclerc did at Monza is sort of ok, to me it's exactly the same. Of course I could be wrong and in that case I'd be grateful if you could shed some light on this matter. Sadly it doesn't look to me as if you addressed this issue on your posts.

Re the last sentence I must confess that I'm not surprised, if you don't like what I write you can either disregard my posts or ask me to leave
 

Izumi

Banned
I don't think that asking why the same behaviour gets treated in different manners based on the name of the culprit can be defined as "prejudice just because they do not agree with them". As a matter of fact I fail to understand why a very simple question should offend you so much, I really don't get why what Vettel did at Sochi is bad and what Leclerc did at Monza is sort of ok, to me it's exactly the same. Of course I could be wrong and in that case I'd be grateful if you could shed some light on this matter. Sadly it doesn't look to me as if you addressed this issue on your posts.

Re the last sentence I must confess that I'm not surprised, if you don't like what I write you can either disregard my posts or ask me to leave
Applied double standard in behavior, character and performance was observable after Vettel's first test with BMW, and unfortunately, deserving or not, there seems to be no end in sight for him.
 
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RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
By the fact that you had to have two bites at my post I feel like I've offended you. Apologies if this is the case and believe it or not I would never ask any genuine poster witj a genuine view to leave. I'm just fed up with being told that because I think Vettel is not doing great this season or did something wrong it's because I have some sort of prejudice and I wouldn't say that if it was someone else. I believe that you have thought through rationally and come to your conclusion on the subject why would you believe I hadn't?
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Gentlemen.

This is my second and final warning. While the debate in this thread has been strong and effective we are straying dangerously close to the edge of the forum rules.

Please can we moderate our language to reduce the likelihood of misunderstanding and the cause of offence. Its clear we all hold strong opinions on this issue and wish to put those feelings across.

This I think has now been achieved and its time to move forward.

Thanks for your understanding.

Regards

C_a_T the Mod
 
By the fact that you had to have two bites at my post I feel like I've offended you. Apologies if this is the case and believe it or not I would never ask any genuine poster witj a genuine view to leave. I'm just fed up with being told that because I think Vettel is not doing great this season or did something wrong it's because I have some sort of prejudice and I wouldn't say that if it was someone else. I believe that you have thought through rationally and come to your conclusion on the subject why would you believe I hadn't?

you didn't offend with that post, in fairness you offended with your first post, but I'm glad that we explained our respective positions on this matter.

Just to put things into perspective is that I feel as if I'm cool if I criticize Vettel and I have to justify myself if I say that he's not the devil. My point was to highlight what Bernoulli correctly said in one of the first posts in this thread: IMHO top drivers, like all top spertomen or sportswomen, think for themselves and usually find a way to justify themselves when they do something selfish (or wrong). This selfish approach is - IMHO - one of the reasons why we are talking about F1 on a web message board and they do the racing. I think that to get to certain levels you need to be selfish. Is it so or am I wrong? I don't know, one the one hand I'd love to live in a world where this wouldn't be the case, in a world where a team would bench a driver who breaches an agreement or a team order, on the other I think that this world would probably is just a phantasy. I might be slightly cynical, who knows
 

Angel

Race Winner
Contributor
Hamilton was fighting for the title in the last day of the season when the team had already won the constructors championship and the team had already promised they could fight to the finish. The team did not want Hamilton to let his team mate through but stop backing him into another driver, Hamilton needed Rosberg to be overtaken in order to win the title. It's like comparing lemons and fish.


I get what you're saying RasputinLives and I really don't want to fall out with you or anyone else here. I just find it odd/interesting that ignoring team orders was apparently more or less seen as okay when Hamilton did it, but Vettel is seemingly seen as wrong when he did it. Whatever the circumstances surrounding it, and you're right they were very different, as I see it they both ignored clear instructions from the pit wall and they're either both wrong or neither of them are for doing so. Every driver is employed by a team and when the team (your boss) tells you to do something, you should do it period, for the most part at least, there are things no one should be told to do obviously.

Edit: I just want to add, I'm not accusing any members here of anything. Whether you like or don't like a driver is entirely personal choice, obviously. I was just interested to see how the two events were viewed by people and that could be here or any other forum. The last thing I want to do is cause offense to anyone and I seriously hope I haven't. If I believed I intentionally had done that I'd take myself off the forum for everyones sake.
 
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Izumi

Banned
For the record, Vettel didn't refused to slot behind Leclerc. There is some ambiguity in what we have seen. What he radioed was (paraphrasing), that he has to come closer to him (for position to change). Not to beat dead horse, we actually do not know how he meant it. Excuse? Had Vettel a valid point? Switching positions, distasteful as it is, involves two actors. Leclerc was missing in action, for he was too slow. I am not sure which race some people were watching.
 
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olegg

Race Winner
"when Hamilton did it, but Vettel is seemingly seen as wrong when he did it "

how facts are changed through not fully event described ...
And Hamilton did not obey the team as well as Vettel after the agreements before the race?
 

Angel

Race Winner
Contributor
So Angel do you think what Vettel did was right?

If he'd refused to let Leclerc through he'd have been totally wrong, however he did suggest Leclerc should get closer to him to make the pass which made sense to some degree because why would you give up a lead to a competitor? Should he have pushed for that lead? No, he had an agreement and he broke it, but I'm sure we've probably all done that in our lives at some point if we feel the situation was justified and I am guessing in that moment, he did. He might have made the pass had Leclerc been able to make the break away from Hamilton, which he apparently wasn't on that set of tyres. That makes it harder to say outright he was completely wrong as we'll never know if he'd have done the swap in that situation.

So in essence my answer is no I don't entirely think he was right to do what he did but at the same time I can also see why he believed he was.
 

Dartman

Podium Finisher
You know what? who really cares, you have two multi millionaires ( well one of them about to be) driving for the same team arguing about who should be first, It has been well known for some years that when the lights go out so does any agreement, team orders are only obeyed if the team enforces any orders or punishes any transgressors.
F1 drivers have huge egos some employ management to tell them how to behave and how to answer questions from the media to nullify the arrogant ego and appear likeable, Lewis Hamilton is probably one of the most schooled in this, others haven't learnt yet or don't care providing the cash rolls in. How the contracts and bonuses work may well have an influence on decisions, if you don't win due to team orders do you still get your win bonus, do both get it? History says how many races you won, not how many you let your team mate win. David Coulthard has the record of GP wins without becoming a WDC, some have won the WDC with half his wins and really that's why team orders are ignored.
 
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You know what? who really cares, you have two multi millionaires ( well one of them about to be) driving for the same team arguing about who should be first, It has been well known for some years that when the lights go out so does any agreement, team orders are only obeyed if the team enforces any orders or punishes any transgressors.
F1 drivers have huge egos some employ management to tell them how to behave and how to answer questions from the media to nullify the arrogant ego and appear likeable, Lewis Hamilton is probably one of the most schooled in this, others haven't learnt yet or don't care providing the cash rolls in. How the contracts and bonuses work may well have an influence on decisions, if you don't win due to team orders do you still get your win bonus, do both get it? History says how many races you won, not how many you let your team mate win. David Coulthard has the record of GP wins without becoming a WDC, some have won the WDC with half his wins and really that's why team orders are ignored.

very nicely put, for me this closes the matter, until the next chapter when these two will crash into each other :) I wonder if that will happen in Japan, rekindling the Prost-Senna saga, we could even start a thread on who's fault the 1989 accident was (IMHO it was Senna's fault)
 

Izumi

Banned
GP247
As the friction rises between the 21-year-old Monegasque and his quadruple Formula 1 World Champion teammate Sebastian Vettel, Helmut Marko said this week that Leclerc is “playing his part in the tension”.

Di Montezemolo: “If Leclerc had complained like that to me, then he would have heard more than a few words in my office,” he told Corriere dello Sport.

Montezemolo said one of the problems in Formula 1 is that the media is often wide off the mark with its reporting, “Many people who write about Formula 1 know little about the sport. ...

When asked what needs to happen in order for Ferrari to finally win another F1 world championship, the 72-year-old Italian joked: “My comeback.”
Perfect. Ive had always a soft spot for LDM.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
Mod Chat.

The posts regarding Brazil and nationalities have been deleted as not relevant to this thread and have the potential to cause offence.

C_a_T the Mod
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
Publius Cornelius Scipio Its how Binotto explains the situation to all the chiefs and how they interpret the situation. If it's a misunderstanding then a warning slap in the wrist about his job . If its deemed to be Vettel's fault then it will be a cause of when they dispense him. Ferrari don't care about reputation just like at how Alonso and Prost ended their time at Ferrari.

I think its matter when Ferrari dispense Vettel if this continues.. I know his contract runs until 2021 but given what has happened in the last 3 races where the team seem to be at risk of imploding. I can;t see Vettel seeing it out and Ferrari are not afraid to pay megabucks to put someone on the sidelines like they did with Kimi
 
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