Michael Schumacher

The Vettel thread surprised me as such that when I searched for a Schumacher thread, I could not find one. So I propose this thread for Schumacher because regardless of your opinion whether his return is succesful or not, I think we can all agree that there's always something to talk about whether he's had a good or bad race.
Historical Discussion may be allowed on the thread as long as it's on topic.
Enjoy! :)
 
That double block into Lesmo 1 wasn't the only double standard Lewis V Schumacher.

I'm also citing Singapore:

Exhibit A: Lewis misjudges his breaking into Massa and get a drive through penalty;

Exhibit B: Schuey misjudges his breaking into Perez and get's away without any penalty (a 5 place Grid Drop would have been somewhat the equivalent).

It's absolutely ghastly how the FIA seems to be favouring Schumacher while, simultaneously, wiping the floor with Hamilton's bum.

First the non-penalization for Shumacher at Monza...now this at Singapore.

Did Schumacher ruin Perez's race? No...

If he did, he would have got a penalty, in these circumstances reprimands are handed out...
 
Did Schumacher ruin Perez's race? No...

It was worse, my friend!

He brought out the safety car!!!

He ruined the races of a number of other people, notably Alonso (who got done by Webber) and of Rosberg (who's race strategy was ruined by the SC). That's only naming two!

In fact Pat Fry of Ferrari is citing the SC as wrecking BOTH cars races!

Ross Brawn is citing the SC as wrecking Rosberg's race!!!

Haug is saying without the SC, Rosberg would have finished 1 spot higher!!!!

:spank:

Bringing out the SC and ruining the race strategy of many is worse than ruining the race strategy of one driver.

Main point is that it was a misjudgement in both cases. Hamilton going into Massa was hardly deliberate or malicious, was it?

PS

Perez also acquired a puncture after Schumacher hit him!

:spank:
 
It was worse, my friend!

He brought out the safety car!!!

He ruined the races of a number of other people, notably Alonso (who got done by Webber) and of Rosberg (who's race strategy was ruined by the SC). That's only naming two!

Bringing out the SC and ruining the race strategy of many is worse than ruining the race strategy of one driver.

Main point is that it was a misjudgement in both cases. Hamilton going into Massa was hardly deliberate or malicious, was it?

And why didn't Hamilton, Button or Alonso get a penalty for bringing out the safety car in Canada, I don't know whether to take that point seriously or not...

So every driver that crashes and brings out a safety car should get a penalty? :rolleyes:
 
So every driver that crashes and brings out a safety car should get a penalty? :rolleyes:

Why are you changing the subject? :unsure:

You said Schumacher's misjudgement didn't wreck Perez's race.

I said Perez got a puncture and other drivers had their races wrecked by the Safety Car.

You said that Massa suffered because of Hamilton's misjudgement whilst you basically implied that Schumacher's misjudgment didn't make Perez (or anyone else) suffer.

I refuted your claim and provided examples of Perez, Alonso, Rosberg and Massa having suffered because of Schumacher's misjudgement.

My main point is that if Hamilton's getting a penalty then Schumacher should too!

Double Standard comes to mind.

The FIA are absolutely pathetic when it comes to judging Lewis and judging Schuey. There's no consistency.
 
I am not changing the subject your the one saying that Schumacher deserved a penalty for bringing out the safety car, and Perez didn't get a puncture...

I said "Did Schumacher ruin Perez's race? No..."

You replied with:

It was worse, my friend!

He brought out the safety car!!!

He ruined the races of a number of other people, notably Alonso (who got done by Webber) and of Rosberg (who's race strategy was ruined by the SC). That's only naming two!

In fact Pat Fry of Ferrari is citing the SC as wrecking BOTH cars races!

Ross Brawn is citing the SC as wrecking Rosberg's race!!!

Haug is saying without the SC, Rosberg would have finished 1 spot higher!!!!

Bringing out the SC and ruining the race strategy of many is worse than ruining the race strategy of one driver.

Main point is that it was a misjudgement in both cases. Hamilton going into Massa was hardly deliberate or malicious, was it?

PS

Perez also acquired a puncture after Schumacher hit him!

Soundsl like you are implying bringing out a safety car deserves a penalty.
 
I started it's own thread.

What I meant by the safety car is that Schumacher's misjudgement also cost something. [i.e. Hamilton's misjudgement wasn't the only costly misdugement.]

You implied that Hamilton got a penalty because it cost Massa where as Schumacher didn't get a penalty because it didn't cost Perez.

Bottom line is neither deserved a penalty. And if Hamilton got one, then Schumacher ought to have gotten one as well!
 
Schumacher might have got a penalty if he didn't crash, after all a grid drop would be too harsh for that incident.

Well, then, he should get a time penalty at the next race. Or serve a drive through at the same point of the Japanese GP.

I don't see why Lewis got a penalty whilst Schumacher didn't for the same thing.

It doesn't leave a good feeling about the FIA being even-handed.
 
Ray, Schumacher did not misjudge his breaking, he misjudged how early Perez lifted, which was much earlier than Schumacher was breaking at the same corner, that’s what caught him out, that’s what he admitted. Also Perez didn’t break test him, he simply was having to break earlier than the Mercedes because he had to.
 
That double block into Lesmo 1 wasn't the only double standard Lewis V Schumacher.

I'm also citing Singapore:
Exhibit A
Lewis misjudges his breaking into Massa and gets a drive through penalty

Exhibit B
Schuey misjudges his breaking into Perez and gets away without any penalty (a 5 place Grid Drop would have been somewhat the equivalent).
It's absolutely ghastly how the FIA seems to be favouring Schumacher while, simultaneously, wiping the floor with Hamilton's bum.

First the non-penalization for Shumacher at Monza...now this at Singapore.

The Stewards consistency is utterly hideous.

This isn't a good example of a double standard. The incidents were similar in that both were innocent mistakes due to clumsy attempts at overtaking. The differences were that: whatever car damage Perez suffered during the incident lost him far less time than Massa lost; and Schumi crashed out whereas Lewis didn't.

A pretty reasonable set of stewarding rules might stipulate that drivers are only punished for reckless or clumsy racing incidents, of the class that would normally merit a drive-through, when they remain in the race long enough to have served the penalty. The purpose of these stewarding interventions is to promote a certain standard of racing conduct, without neutering the racing. I submit that sufficient disincentive is provided by only punishing drivers who remain in the race in such cases (note that for example Liuzzi's crash in Monza is different, because this was sufficiently reckless and destructive to merit more than a drive-through whether or not he remained in the race). Therefore since the less stewarding the better as long as the desired standard of racing conduct is met approximately, why not eliminate a class of unnecessary penalties by neglecting to hand out grid drops to those who crash out due to clumsy racing?

Furthermore, this prevents the stewards from having to regularly hand out different penalties (grid drop vs drive-through) for the same class of offences, and prevents stewarding decisions from proliferating into new races (which is aesthetically unappealing in a way that in-race penalties are not).

Whether the outcome for the innocent party should be taken into account is another matter. An argument in favour is this: If all substantial contact where one party is mostly to blame is punished, then "substantial" is subject to the discretion of the stewards. If only contact where one party is mostly to blame and the victim is significantly hampered is punished, the "significantly" is subject to the discretion of the stewards. So in both cases there is some level of subjectivity, but the advantage of the latter approach is that fewer penalties are handed out. (Note that I am still talking about reckless or clumsy, but unintentional and not-inordinately-dangerous incidents. Different rules should apply in some other cases.) So as long as we are satisfied that this approach brings about a suitable standard of driving conduct, it therefore seems preferable.

I am aware that this may not be how the rules are worded. However, it seems to me that the rules are rather vague, and the stewards do tend to apply these unwritten principles in their judgements. In my opinion, the rules are in many places far too ambiguous or under-defined for anyone to complain fairly that the stewards haven't followed the letter of the law in their judgements.

In fact, I think that the rules of Formula 1 on-track racing should be improved to become more rigorously defined (although hopefully not to the point where they become labyrinthine). But the point I am trying to make is that with stewarding rules and precedent being what they are, I don't think that the point stands that Lewis was subject to a double-standard with respect to Schumacher on this occasion.

This is not to say that Lewis hasn't in general been treated unduly harshly by the stewards this season or subjected to genuine double standards on previous occasions, though.
 
To qualify what I said: Either one of the two differences between Schumi's incident and Lewis's incident might be considered reasonable grounds for treating them differently. Also, I think that a reprimand is apposite in the case that a driver crashes out and his victim is seriously hindered, because certain drivers (e.g. Sato in Indycar) do this regularly. Then the rule of three reprimands = grid drop can apply. Or perhaps repeat offences could be looked at as constituting intent rather than as mere accidents - perhaps repeat offenders could be put on probation, under which circumstances they are punished more heavily for any blameful racing incident.
 
This isn't a good example of a double standard. The incidents were similar in that both were innocent mistakes due to clumsy attempts at overtaking. The differences were that: whatever car damage Perez suffered during the incident lost him far less time than Massa lost; and Schumi crashed out whereas Lewis didn't.

Welcome to the party, Clinton! :)

Liuzzi crashed out at Monza. But he got a penalty. Why shouldn't Schumacher?

Where's the consistency?

Do tell. :)

In addition, Perez wasn't the only driver who suffered as a result of Schumacher's clumsy attempt. Both Ferrari drivers and Rosberg - according to Alonso, Pat Fry, Ross Brawn and Norbert Haug - lost out as a result of Schumacher's clumsy attempt (the Safety Car ruined their races).

I am not advocating penalties per se', Clinton.

I'm advocating consistency and the impression inconsistency leaves of the Stewarding or of the FIA isn't a very good one.

I imagine it (the inconsistency) is making Lewis paranoid...and it's sending a the wrong signal to some young drivers who are looking at how Schumacher drove and continues to drive.
 
and this has a thread all of it's own so please take this discussion there.

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/interpreting-fia-rules-and-the-consistent-application-of-them.2344/

But, and it's a BIG but - any more passive, aggressive goading or requests for a response will be deleted. Each member is entitled to their own point of view and opinion. Should that opinion not meet with the approval of another member they DO NOT have to justify themselves. This is not a court room, is a place to discuss motor racing and any further "cross examination" will not be tolerated.


FB
 
In addition, Perez wasn't the only driver who suffered as a result of Schumacher's clumsy attempt. Both Ferrari drivers and Rosberg - according to Alonso, Pat Fry, Ross Brawn and Norbert Haug - lost out as a result of Schumacher's clumsy attempt (the Safety Car ruined their races).

If Rosberg hadn't punted Perez off track at turn one (without penalty), Schumacher wouldn't have been up behind Perez, wouldn't have hit him and there would have been no safety car. Alonso and Massa would have got better results, both Mercs would be in the points. Happy days for everyone (except Lewis, who would have had a worse result).

There you go Ray, it was Nico's fault. ROFL
 
Michael Schumacher, Mercedes, DNF
Now I know that Michael's been making a few uncharacteristic errors this year, but I can't help thinking there's more to the impact with Perez than meets the eye. It's very rare that a driver gets it so wrong that they get catapulted over the back of another car. We had the incident with Kovalainen and Webber in Valencia, but that was with two very different paced cars. The other thing that makes me naturally suspicious is that Perez had just been done over by Nico Rosberg who pushed him wide and then took the place. So there could well be an element of red mist on Perez's behalf. He looked to me, to be veering from his usual line when he lifted early for the corner. The stewards gave Michael a reprimand but I'd only be satisfied that was the right decision if I could see an overlay of Perez's throttle traces and the previous 20-odd lines he took into that corner.
By Andrew Davieshttp://www.planetf1.com/race-features/7203543/Singapore-GP-Winners-Losers , not my favourite writer by all means, but he criticises Schumacher quite a but and was surprised to hear him say this.

I kind of agree with him, it was an unusual line, and he did seem to brake earlier than normal, quite a contrast to when Rosberg braked for the corner who was just ahead on track.
 
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