Is Schumacher really slower than Rosberg?

Dario Resta

Podium Finisher
Hi,

This is my first post on here, so go easy on me. I've trawled the various forums since 606 closed, deciding which one to join, and there are a few so-called experts on just about every one - there is one particular poster on not606 - that says Schumacher is "plain slow". Several people have noticed improved race speed from Schumacher in the last few races, although he seems to struggle in qualifying. It has been said on some of these sites that Schumacher had a particularly poor race in Hungary. His pace however, doesn't suggest that. OK, he qualified badly compared to Rosberg, but the lap times tell a slightly different story. These are the FIA official lap times for the Mercedes drivers until Schumacher went off and retired:

Schumacher Rosberg

Lap 1 1.59.185 1.58.063
Lap 2 1.50.989 1.49.858
Lap 3 1.49.324 1.48.372
Lap 4 1.47.697 1.46.279
Lap 5 1.44.730 1.44.594
Lap 6 1.43.905 1.43.739
Lap 7 1.45.035 1.43.551
Lap 8 1.42.786 1.42.791
Lap 9 1.42.451 1.43.063
Lap 10 1.41.653 1.41.919
Lap 11 1.40.203 1.40.785
Lap 12 1.39.929 1.42.328 (PIT)
Lap 13 1.42.324 (PIT) 1.57.657
Lap 14 1.55.146 1.33.428
Lap 15 1.31.474 1.32.919
Lap 16 1.30.646 1.30.967
Lap 17 1.30.409 1.30.914
Lap 18 1.30.447 1.31.192
Lap 19 1.29.781 1.30.316
Lap 20 1.30.233 1.30.289
Lap 21 1.30.337 1.29.914
Lap 22 1.30.206 1.30.366
Lap 23 1.30.342 1.30.647
Lap 24 1.30.671 1.30.228
Lap 25 1.29.927 1.30.053
Lap 26 1.32.076 (PIT) 1.30.332

Rosberg was fastest in every one of the first seven laps, but Schumacher was quicker in all but four of the next nineteen laps. Is he really slow? Is Rosberg slow in the races, but great in quali? Are they both rubbish?

Thanks for your time, and go easy!
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
The lap times don't tell the whole story though.

We would need to know if either driver was following anyone and possibly held up.
 

Dario Resta

Podium Finisher
That is a very valid point, but are Schumacher's errors because of desperation to make up for the poor quali? Is he just trying too hard to make up the ground? I expect both Mercs to have good pace in Spa and Monza, so hopefully both will go well and score good points.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Rosberg is at the peak of his game. Schumacher is not. As an all round package Rosberg very much has the measure of Schumacher. I can't see this changing. Schumacher is becoming marginally more consistent but he just isn't quite there and there is nothing to suggest that he will return to the form he had as a younger competitor with the support of all but his competitors.

Welcome to the forum, Dario. I hope you like it here. I joined a couple of months ago. There's some good debate here and it's well run.
 

Dario Resta

Podium Finisher
The lap times don't tell the whole story though.

We would need to know if either driver was following anyone and possibly held up.

Very true. From what I saw of Schumacher's car in the first couple of laps though, it was like a duck on ice. No grip at all.

From the lap times, it seems like Nico dealt with the damp track better, maybe due to setup, but Schumacher had a faster car as conditions improved.
 

Slyboogy

World Champion
Contributor
Rosberg is better in qualifying by some margin.

But race pace Schumacher is either with him or faster since catalunya this year

It was noted that in silverstone and Nurburgring Schumachers race pace was quite a bit better than Rosbergs with the mistakes.

Not a bad first post at all :thumbsup:
 

jez101

Bookies drive nice cars because of people like me
Contributor
Hi Dario - welcome to CTA. :wave:

Folks here can be a touch argumentative, but in general it is quite friendly :)

I think that you have to look at Schumi (post 2010) and say that he has been comprehensively beaten by Rosberg. By whatever measure, Nico has outperformed him - even this year when the excuse (from last year) that the car was designed for someone else's style no longer holds water.

Personally, I think a big part of the reason for this is that Nico is very, very good. Nico compared extremely well to Webber in his rookie season and has beaten everyone else he has been teamed up with. Quite why he doesn't get the credit is a mystery to me - but this is a Schumacher question, not a Rosberg one so I am risking taking this thread off topic here!

Strangely though, I have warmed to Michael the more human he has become over the last two years. I now do wish him a podium and would not begrudge him one more win - as long as Nico got one first!

I was a big Keke Rosberg fan, so take this with the usual disclaimers ;)
 

Dario Resta

Podium Finisher
Hi Dario - welcome to CTA. :wave:

Folks here can be a touch argumentative, but in general it is quite friendly :)

I think that you have to look at Schumi (post 2010) and say that he has been comprehensively beaten by Rosberg. By whatever measure, Nico has outperformed him - even this year when the excuse (from last year) that the car was designed for someone else's style no longer holds water.

Personally, I think a big part of the reason for this is that Nico is very, very good. Nico compared extremely well to Webber in his rookie season and has beaten everyone else he has been teamed up with. Quite why he doesn't get the credit is a mystery to me - but this is a Schumacher question, not a Rosberg one so I am risking taking this thread off topic here!

Strangely though, I have warmed to Michael the more human he has become over the last two years. I now do wish him a podium and would not begrudge him one more win - as long as Nico got one first!

I was a big Keke Rosberg fan, so take this with the usual disclaimers ;)

It's not a pro Schumacher post exactly. I like to be balanced with any debate, and it seems to me that Rosberg's excellent quali pace, combined with a few errors from Schumacher have made the gap look wider than it really is. I wouldn't say Nico has outperformed him in terms of race pace. Nico has made less mistakes and qualified better.

Thanks for the welcome everyone!
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Schumacher has finished ahead of Rosberg 4 times in "official sessions" (quali and the race). So, is he slower over one lap during the Grand Prix? Maybe not. But there are two important questions?
  • Is Schumacher slower on a Saturday afternoon? Yes.
  • Is Schumacher slower to do 300km on a Sunday afternoon? Yes.
So, I'm afraid he is not beating Rosberg in the important places.
 

sushifiesta

Champion Elect
Contributor
Had Schumacher not had so many accidents this year I think he and Rosberg would be pretty even on points, if not with Schumacher ahead. There have been many occasions this year where Schumacher has started behind Rosberg only to emerge in front of him at the end of the first lap or end up right up Rosberg's backside at some point during the race.

Obviously you don't win anything for having an accident once you've got yourself in a good position, but I personally feel he's improved significantly since last year.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
To me, it seems Rosberg can be quick, but he just doesn't have raw pace or the racecraft to make it look good. By rights he should be absolutely thrashing Schumacher, especially with the amount of front wings Schumacher has lost, but he isn't, there is only 16 points between them after Hungary and a DNF for Schumacher. This speaks volumes either about Rosberg as a driver or about Schumacher and not having lost it as much as people are saying, it all depends on your bias and viewpoint.

One thing is "for sure", Schumacher needs to improve his qualifying. If the Mercs had been marginally closer to the front at Hungary, they would have led after the first corner..
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
To me, it seems Rosberg can be quick, but he just doesn't have raw pace or the racecraft to make it look good. By rights he should be absolutely thrashing Schumacher, especially with the amount of front wings Schumacher has lost, but he isn't, there is only 16 points between them after Hungary and a DNF for Schumacher. This speaks volumes either about Rosberg as a driver or about Schumacher and not having lost it as much as people are saying, it all depends on your bias and viewpoint.

One thing is "for sure", Schumacher needs to improve his qualifying. If the Mercs had been marginally closer to the front at Hungary, they would have led after the first corner..

Rosberg is finishing as well as can be expected. Nobody is expecting him to beat either the Ferraris, the Red Bulls or the McLarens. The reason that he is not totally destroying Schumacher is because Schumacher is the only guy that doesn't have either a very significantly better or worse race-car.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
I have to say I think Schumacher has taken a step up this season compared to last (having said after the first few races that it was time for him to retire...)

Quaifying is clearly still a major issue for him, and he gets involved in collisions far too often fighting with cars that he should be well clear of. But I agree that on race pace on a clear track, I don't see much difference between the two Mercedes drivers these days.

In the context of Michael's previous career that is hardly an achievement, but it does at least suggest that it might be worth him seeing out his contract into the third season after all.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
I have to say I think Schumacher has taken a step up this season compared to last (having said after the first few races that it was time for him to retire...)

Quaifying is clearly still a major issue for him, and he gets involved in collisions far too often fighting with cars that he should be well clear of. But I agree that on race pace on a clear track, I don't see much difference between the two Mercedes drivers these days.

In the context of Michael's previous career that is hardly an achievement, but it does at least suggest that it might be worth him seeing out his contract into the third season after all.

So all he really needs is a Red Bull and no cars in front of him and he's a champ again?
 

Jos the Boss

Champion Elect
Personally I think if it wasn't from all Schumi's DNF's they would be evenly matched. In Aussie he was 7th or 8th before he got a puncture, Monaco he was ahead of Nico before he retired and was denied 15pts or 3 more points at Canada due to a safety car (and the FIA disobeying there own rules I think i remember them saying it was only allowed if the track was completly dry or something I may be wrong) and in Hungary he was in the points and could of been high up. So there pace isn't much off imo
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Good post.

I'm a bit of a Nico Rosberg sceptic if i'm honest and I see him very much in the mould of Jarno Trulli when he was at Renault. Quick in Quali but goes backwards in the race. I actually thing he's having a worse season than last year and that really with the form he's actually shown us he can produce (see your lap times for instance) he should be beating Nico this year and the fact he isn't can be put down to the 'mistakes' he's been making.

I think the mistakes come from Schumi having too much pride. He is obviously a target for most drivers in the field now because you can't tell me the majority of todays grid don't enjoy sticking one up the inside of the great Michael Schumacher. In turn I think this annoys Michael so much that he defends too hard. How many nosecones have we seen him lose defending his position too hard this year? I think he's shown his form is there (although nothing like in his first career) and I have no doubt in my mind that if that Merc car was suddenly in a position to win a race it would be Schumi that did it not Nico just down to pure race craft and experience. I think if he accepted being beaten a bit more he'd have had better results this season.

Having said that I guess not accepting when you're beaten is exactly what made him great in the first place.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Personally I think if it wasn't from all Schumi's DNF's they would be evenly matched. In Aussie he was 7th or 8th before he got a puncture, Monaco he was ahead of Nico before he retired and was denied 15pts or 3 more points at Canada due to a safety car (and the FIA disobeying there own rules I think i remember them saying it was only allowed if the track was completly dry or something I may be wrong) and in Hungary he was in the points and could of been high up. So there pace isn't much off imo

Personally, I think if Schumacher could match Rosberg over a race weekend, they would be evenly matched. Unfortunately he can't, so they aren't.
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
A couple of adages spring to mind: "to finish first, first you have to finish" and "your first priority is to beat your team-mate". Who is slower than whom is, I suggest, perhaps not the question most people have been trying to answer. If as others have mentioned Michael is failing to beat Rosberg due to his DNF's (or for any other reason) the fact is he is not beating his team-mate. Until he does the answer to the question of who is doing better in the Mercedes is, Rosberg.

To answer the original question with regard to who is the quicker I for one need to blow a load more time looking back at practise, quali and race stat's to work it out. That is a job for someone else with the inclination. Personally, for me the results tell the story. Rosberg is (at the moment) better.:)

Edit: Sorry, just re-read the stat's to refresh my memory and according to them Rosberg is faster,
(see the Head to Head stat's - Bro's post has the links above).
 
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