Is Schumacher really slower than Rosberg?

Theo_55

Rookie
Who is faster or slower on any given lap is of no consequence, the results after races on sunday's are the only relevant stats that matters, the driver with the most points holds all the aces..
 

Il_leone

World Champion
Hmm this was always going to be a question mark whether its Schumacher's rustiness from being 3 years away and his age or is Rosberg not as good as people think.

I think Rosberg is in the same position that Button was after 5 or 6 years in F1 with people raving about his talents and abilities but he has not delivered.

It is very difficult to tell about his ultimate potential given the lack of quality teammates he's had in F1 if you look at Williams. There's a belief he's not quite on Alonso or Hamilton level but maybe Button's. He's coped well with all the Schumacher fan fare last season and mind games with regards to which side of the garage to occupy and the car number superstition ( no one told Schumacher that Car Number 7 is not as lucky as he thinks or did he forgot the check the history books this season.

Going back to Rosberg he has been linked with Ferrari, Red Bull, Mclaren as in the past and he himself is getting frustrated he has not won a grand prix yet but then he's never had the car barring the inability to take advantage of some races in 2009 when the Williams were one of the teams fitted with the DD at the start. People have questioned Rosberg's ability to go wheel to wheel and his ultimate pace given he lost the Malaysia GP in 2009 somehow from leading in the early stages impressively.

Also Schumacher has been closer to him race pace wise although not a match in qualifying. Whats probably helping his cause is Schumacher keeps making one mistake per race either it being a lost wing or wheel banging with other drivers.

It is clear the MErcedes is a very poor car but this is not helping Nico'd cause to show he's worthy of a front running car
 

Il_leone

World Champion
Think about it Mercedes are a joke and a laughing stock of F1
Ross is being wasted at Mercedes because they have to do it their way.
Rosberg is frustrated. He is quoted as saying " No one would win in the current Mercedes" ouch- he must be wondering now why he did not take the Mclaren offer back in 2008

Schumacher - he has to admit he's just not the same as before and there are a lot of young drivers queueing up for his seat Mercedes would be looking to such as

DI Resta
Hulkenberg
Sutil
Kubica
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
There have been a lot of people jumping up and down about Schumacher's race on Sunday and about how he "outdrove" Nico Rosberg into 5th. Well, it's my opinion that Schumacher did nothing special. He had not burnt a single set of tyres in qualli, was on a three stop strategy and was helped immensely by a timely safety car. Yes, he drove a great race and yes he had a great start, but no better than his team-mate Rosberg given that the chips were all stacked in his favour. Rosberg's start was also immense and his defensive driving against much faster cars was supreme.

Two people that agree with me on this are Mark Hughes and none other than Ross Brawn.

Formula 1: Is the real Michael Schumacher back?

It was almost impossible to compare Schumacher's performance with Rosberg's; their race strategies were entirely different, Rosberg two-stopping, Schumacher three. Yes, Schumacher was able to overtake, but on faster soft tyres.

Mercedes team boss Ross Brawn said: "The softs were around one second per lap faster than the mediums and that was the decisive thing that tipped it in Michael's favour. That and the earlier safety car.

"That wiped out much of Michael's earlier time deficit to the cars in front [including Rosberg], by which time he had already got his medium tyres out of the way, having started on them and then pitted after four laps."

So the seven-time world champion got to have his cake and eat it thanks to the way the race played out, the safety car gifting him an artificially created proximity to Rosberg on track but on a tyre that at the critical time was much faster.
Looking at their respective fastest laps, set at similar stages of the race, Schumacher's was 1.1 seconds faster than Rosberg's - roughly what Brawn reckoned the time difference between the two tyre types to be

In other words, the pace of the two drivers was roughly equal and circumstances just played more kindly to Schumacher than Rosberg. Their actual performances were very similar.
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Brogan. Sorry to be a pain but when you a moment could you post up that lap time comparrision chart you posted on the other thread.

Very nice PR from Ross and I don't think anyone is denying Schumi got lucky with the safety car or that Nico had a good race.

Fact is Schumi was quicker - only just - but he was. But they both had great races.
 

Brogan

Legend
Staff Member
Lap time chart for Belgium.

2011-belgian-grand-prix-lap-times-schumacher-rosberg-png.2294


Hehe, I was already on it :)

FYI, anyone embed an attachment from another post. Just open the image in a new tab and use the URL, e.g. http://cliptheapex.com/attachments/2011-belgian-grand-prix-lap-times-schumacher-rosberg-png.2294/
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Yes it shows Schumacher was faster.

To be honest with you its all a bit pointless I have the ultimate evidence that Schumacher was faster than Rosberg at Spa.

Its indisputable.

You ready?

Schumacher 5th

Rosberg 6th.

Therefore Schumacher must have been faster because he completed the race before Rosberg. Simple really.
 
M

MattF1

Guest
Anthony Davidson made a great point a few weeks back, he said that Rosberg can just do the perfect lap time in quali. He can extract everything from the car in quali when it counts. He's always had that ability. Schumi on the other hand doesnt seem to do this, he does decent lap times and is normally within a tenth or two. Schumacher has a few more car malfunctions in quali this year however. I can think of a few ocassions where the DRS and KERS on the no. 7 Merc havent been functioning correctin in quali..

That been said, come race pace Schumi (this year anyway) has consistently been equal to Nico's pace and more regularly quicker than Nico's pace in the race...

So it's a tough question, is Schumacher really slower? In quali yes, but as we have all seen quali is not as important this year as it has been in previous years - although it is quite handy
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Yes it shows Schumacher was faster.

To be honest with you its all a bit pointless I have the ultimate evidence that Schumacher was faster than Rosberg at Spa.

Its indisputable.

You ready?

Schumacher 5th

Rosberg 6th.

Therefore Schumacher must have been faster because he completed the race before Rosberg. Simple really.
Would he have been faster on the same strategy, fighting and defending against faster cars all race long and with a full tyre allocation. I think, at best, on a par. Schumacher was faster? Yes. Did he perform better relative to his circumstances? No.
 

Brogan

Legend
Staff Member
They stopped within 1 lap of each other for the last stint and in that one Michael was consistently faster, just as he had been for the majority of the race/laps.

Same tyres, same amount of wear, same period of the race.

I find it hard to disagree with the conclusion that Michael was faster than Nico.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
They stopped within 1 lap of each other for the last stint and in that one Michael was consistently faster, just as he had been for the majority of the race/laps.

Same tyres, same amount of wear, same period of the race.

I find it hard to disagree with the conclusion that Michael was faster than Nico.

Was Schumacher fighting with Hamilton, Massa, Alonso, Webber, Vettel or was he cruising past backmarkers and midfield cars. I think omitting the answer to that question does not do the comparison any justice at all. Nico also was on a two stop which meant he had to make his tyres last longer.

I don't disagree that he was faster. It's hard to argue with facts. What I do disagree with is the dismissal of other relevant facts which give the differential in speed meaning and context with regards to individual comparative driver performance.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
They were definitely on different compounds, and Nico was (yet again) in fuel saving mode. I remain guarded about Schumacher's performance for the simple reason he's yet another Q1 drop out to get some points this season.

Its happening so often they should really do something about it; there is no advantage to qualifying 17th over 18th.
 
Rosberg did well, Schumacher did better. Yeah, you need a bit of luck to pull it off after starting 19 positions behind your teammate and doing one pit-stop more than him, but it would be more than unusual to manage to catch up with a guy driving the same car who made no mistakes just because you drove 10 laps less on hard tires.

Rosberg defended against Vettel for one lap (passed on lap 3), had no pressure on lap 4, then Alonso and Ham on his back on laps 5 and 6, got passed by both by laps 7 and 8, free lap 9, passed easily by Vettel again on lap 10, then Pit on lap 11, followed Massa between laps 13 and 17 (Safety-car), who he passed, had Massa on his back until lap 22 before he created a one second gap which he maintained pretty consistently until his second Pit on lap 30. Had a more relaxing time until lap 36, when Schumacher got within one second of him and the rest is history.

Schumacher had a busy opening six laps, with passes past slow cars and his first pit stop, then caught up with Barrichello by lap 10, passed him on 11, then Pit and SC until lap 17, fought with Button between laps 18 and 21, then had Sutil in front of him at no more than 1-1.5 seconds between laps 23 and 33, who was hard to pass because of his top-speed, caught up with Nico by lap 36 and had to race him until lap 42.

So really, Rosberg lasted in front of Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton two laps longer than it took Schumacher to get past the really slow cars. Then Massa-Rosberg was a nice battle to follow, but Sutil-Schumacher was pretty balanced as well, seeing how FI had beaten MGP in the last two races and the track is one that has favored FI historically. Not to mention Schumacher did four laps driving against Button, as in half as much as Rosberg did actually fighting against Vet, Alo, Ham.

In conclusion, I don't think it's fair at all to say Rosberg's drive was defined by fighting against the top cars, while Schumacher's was defined by getting past much lesser opponents. Both drove against some good cars for almost half the race and Schumacher got the better of it all because after a challenging race, even if he was aided by a better strategy. If starting last and finishing in front of your teammate does not weigh enough to say that his performance was better than his faultless teammate's on the day, then I don't know what does.

P.S. Other than that, DRS and tires clearly reduce the importance of qualifying well. Button, Webber, Schumacher & others have shown it on several occasions.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
I don't think it's fair at all to say Rosberg's drive was defined by fighting against the top cars, while Schumacher's was defined by getting past much lesser opponents.

Me neither. but it was a factor, as was strategy, as was the safety car, as was the abundance of fresh tyres at his disposal. I am looking at the WHOLE picture. Not just individual parts of it. the whole picture tells us the whole story. I'm not taking anything away from Schumacher's drive other than what people are piling on to it. It was as good as any drive I have seen from him after his comeback and as good as anyone could have expected. It was not, however, supreme and when looking at ALL of the facts was no better than his team-mate's.
 
I wouldn't have called it supreme, but I would still rate it better than Rosberg's. Let's agree to disagree on this. :D

Would be great for both MGP and Schumacher if the results were always this close between them, but there's something to Rosberg's consistency that still speaks for him.

Regarding the matter of Rosberg being much faster in quali and Schumacher faring better in the races, it's been said that due to the short wheelbase, there is little room for finding a setting to the car that will work as well in both quali and race. So it is assumed that Schumacher sacrifices some of his quali pace for more race pace, but I'd say that even if you discounted this, Rosberg would still be stronger on the single lap.

Bottom line is that whatever they do, higher than 7th is only possible if others mess up. Which is sad.
 
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