The 2013 Season

[sushifiesta]

siffert_fan Vettel went to Red Bull in 2009 not 2008. That coincides with the regulations overhaul from which Red Bull emerged as the strongest, it is only missing the double diffuser that stopped them from winning the championship in 2009 I think. The foundations for the success that followed were already there in 2009 so I would argue that the work Newey and his design team did to develop that car in 2008 was the most vital... and this is before Vettel arrived.

I'm dubious just how much influence a modern F1 driver can have over the design of a car, particularly with the very limited testing now.

 

[siffert_fan]

Sushifiesta

The FIA treated RB and TR as essentially the same team and forced a greater divergence upon their cars at that time. It is reasonable to assume that input into one car equaled input into both cars. Seb was promoted to the senior team in 2009, but they had apparently been receiving his input throughout the 2008 season via TR.

I, for one, am not prepared to call Newey a liar or say that he is just ego-stroking Vettel when he states that Seb's input has been essential.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Keke......please provide even a shred of hard evidence that Vettel CAN'T out-develop the other drivers.

Webber told me in no uncertain terms.

Newey joined RB in late 2005, too late to create the 2006 car. However, the 2007 car was all-Newey, as has been every car since then. The all-Newey cars in 2007 and 2008 took 5th and 7th in the WCC.

Why would you expect a new team's car to be dominant straight out of the box? There was a definite trial and error period with some of Newey's more radical innovations. A long time ago I posted some footage of the Red Bull at Shanghai 2008, and you cannot believe the way the front wing was fluttering at the tips. Flexi-Wing/Droop nose technology was in its early stages.

And I see sushi has already noted that 2009 was a fairly large departure from the cars of the preceding years. By the time the year was over, Red Bull was in a position of power that they've enjoyed since then.

I, for one, am not prepared to call Newey a liar or say that he is just ego-stroking Vettel when he states that Seb's input has been essential.

Well I think it is obvious that his cars have been tailored to Seb's style. And now that Mark is calling it a day, its a one man show more than ever. They've obviously worked together on the Red Bull cars, and I've no doubt Seb's input on what he needs has been essential.

 

[sushifiesta]

siffert_fan It's definitely possible that Vettel's input was useful for the parent team in 2008 but in 2009 the cars were completely different so I doubt any of that crossed over. Also, they had two very experienced drivers in Webber and Coulthard at the parent team so I suspect at the time they would have been listening to them a lot more carefully than they were to a new upcoming driver in a different, albeit linked, team.

I'm sure Vettel's input has been important in the development of the Red Bull but you'll be hard pressed to convince me that the quality of his feedback is a major factor in his success. The kind of argument you're making could be applied to Hamilton, Mercedes and McLaren this year. McLaren's car is much worse and Mercedes' is much better, so can we conclude that Hamilton's feedback is amazing as well? Or how about in 2009 when McLaren had a shocker of a car and were winning races by the end of the season, was that Hamilton too?

At the other end of the spectrum I remember that after one of the practice sessions earlier in the season where Caterham gave Kovalainen an outing, Van der Garde (who had sat out the session) was asked whether he was annoyed to not be in the car. He said yes but he was also pleased because the feedback Kovalainen was giving was the same as what he had been saying and he thought the team would trust him more from now on. So a rookie without a particularly good reputation can at least provide similar feedback to a well regarded driver who was in F1 for years up and down the grid.

We can see Vettel flawlessly drives the car he's given but I really doubt the car he's driving would be significantly worse if they replaced his feedback with that of another decent driver.

 

[MCLS]

It's mad how fast this season has gone, it only feels like a few weeks ago we were at Brazil last November and it's not long until we're gonna be there again

 

[Westy]

I've been sitting in the wings on this debate over Seb's contribution to the Red Bull cars because I didn't want to get drawn into an argument. However, I do want to put my opinion out there.

Firstly, if people such as Newey are touting Seb as a great car development driver then who are we to argue. That said, Vettel is a driver, and a great one at that. Formula One cars are designed and built by some of the most brilliant men and women in their fields. Sebastian, Lewis, Fernando, and the rest of the F1 grid are drivers first and foremost, their job is to drive the cars to their absolute limit. To say that the RB's success is down to Vettel's brilliant development skills is a slap in the face to the hundreds of men and woman back in MK who have worked their fingers to the bones creating, let's face it, four successive title winning cars.

This is a team sport and to put the praise on one or two people is a little naive. Newey and Vettel are fantastic at what they do, but neither could be where they are today if they didn't have a team to support them.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I believe that a great deal of Webbers problems have been that he just cannot deal with the Pirelli tyres and Seb has adjusted to them nicely, this is why there is such a massive gap between the two drivers if the Bridgestones were brought back the difference between them would be negligible.

Well that's what | think anyway...

 

[snowy]

His luck wouldn't change tho'.

 

[RasputinLives]

I'm guessing the implied 'luck' is a suggestion the team give him preference which I guess is debatable and possible but I have two points on this.

Vettal does have good fortune ans some of it can't be explained away by team preference. For instances when the safety car came out at Korea he was just at the entrance to the pits. First in, first out, no bother. Can't put that down to Red Bull.

Also where Webber is concerned if we do put down all his 'bad luck' to team preference for Vettal how do we account for all his 'bad luck' before Red Bull and Vettal. Whats the Murray Walker quote "If Mark Webber didn't have bad luck he'd have no luck at all". His career is full of mechanical problems, pit stop errors and being stuck behind slower cars even before he came to Red Bull and we can't put that down to team preference.

Maybe to a degree each driver has made his own luck?

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Luck plays a part but where a driver is on track determines how much luck can affect a driver. The Red Bull has been designed to lead from the front and not be stuck in traffic, Vettel will be suffering less stress on his car as it is running in clearer air longer than Webbers. Being stuck in traffic also adds other variables into the mix such as Korea with another car spinning into Webbers path.

If Webber qualified at the front more consistently and managed to get his starts together I don't think he would have had so many problems.

 

[Fenderman]

Whilst I liked your post RasputinLives , reading between
snowy 's lines a dangerous thing. Especially when he only writes one.

 

[RasputinLives]

but....but....but....Winky Smiley!

 

[RasputinLives]

Oh and on the subject of Mclaren. The team have a history of rise, win, fall, dirge, new engine, rise, win, fall and I see nothing to say thats not repeating! Hello Honda in 2015, title by 2017/18?

Edit: back of the field by 2020.

Or of course they may go full time in Formula E by then.

 

[Fenderman]

Indeed.

 

[Fenderman]

From today's press conference:

Q: (Ian Parkes – Press Association) Sebastian, I was wondering whether you have read or heard about Lewis Hamilton’s comments following the race in Korea?

SV: Yeah, I was told. Obviously it’s very nice to hear something like that. I think I can only give it back, I think. There is respect amongst the drivers, obviously there’s a lot of stuff that gets written and said but I think that the most important thing is when you go up to another driver, whether you feel respected or not and I think that is the case. I think Lewis is one of the best drivers currently in Formula One. I get along quite well with him lately so I can only say ‘thank you very much’ and give it back.

Q: (Ian Parkes – Press Association) Can I just follow up on that? You obviously read about Lewis’s Tweets but I was referring to his immediate post-race comments?

SV: Sorry, I didn’t hear (those).

Q: (Ian Parkes – Press Association) The post-race comments referred to the fact that your era now was as predictable as the Schumacher era, in that when you watched a race back then, you watched the start, fell asleep and then by the end of the race, you knew who had won.

SV: Well, that’s a compliment, first of all. I think it’s very different. I think there’s probably one race which was a bit of an exception. If you take Singapore, the gaps we had and were able to build up were incredible, to lap two seconds quicker than the cars behind us, but obviously it depends on who was behind us at the time and which tyres (they had) and so on, but anyways, what I want to say is that if you take Korea which I think is more similar to Spa, the gap was something between three and six seconds for the whole race. If you look at ten years ago, it was more like thirty to sixty seconds which is a big difference. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a nice cushion to have in the car, when you see that you’re three seconds down the road, but equally you know that if you make one stupid mistake – in Korea, for example, a lock-up which was very likely and three seconds is nothing compared to thirty or sixty.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Nice try Ian

 

[Westy]

In all seriousness, what do people want from Vettel and Red Bull? I know we all want good racing, and I definitely don't want to be bored each race like I am now. However, it's not like all this badgering and questioning of Vettel and his dominance is going to make him and his team think "You know what, let's purposely loose this week to make everyone feel better."

I can't wait for a different world champion as the Wing Finger really gets under my skin, however he's not just going to stop because people tell him he's boring. It's up to the other teams to beat him, simple.

 

[Bushi]

People act like F1 is boring because of Vettel his dominance. The only difference with a few years back is that now it's mostly one guy that is winning races. If you rewind back to 2005-2008, most of the races back than were also over after the first corner, because nobody could pass the car in front.

 

[Bill Boddy]

There is respect amongst the drivers

Yes there is, like they ought to get their balls out of the pool. Very respectful.

 

[Westy]

Well done Bill Boddy