Poll Should Button now take a supporting role to Hamilton
- Thread starter Greenlantern101
- Start date
racecub
Champion Elect
I v'e said it before in another thread, Whitmarsh won't order Button to help Hamilton and if he did Button wouldn't do it. Witness Silverstone when they weren't even racing each other.
My personal view, in situations like Silverstone, Button should help(and vice versa as Lewis did in Germany), and if I was his boss and he pulled that stunt after being told not to mess with Lewis I'd smack his bottom good and proper! But I wouldn't want Jenson put into the Massa /Barichello role, having to actually slow down and let the team mate past, not until he's way ,way out of the championship. I don't think Whitmarsh would order it even then and Button wouldn't comply if he did. Well he's said he wouldn't. But there arent many ocassions when Button gets into a position to help Lewis so its a bit of a moot point. Going faster and taking points off Alonso and Vettel would be a nice start.
Ive not voted , cos its not a simple yes or no.
My personal view, in situations like Silverstone, Button should help(and vice versa as Lewis did in Germany), and if I was his boss and he pulled that stunt after being told not to mess with Lewis I'd smack his bottom good and proper! But I wouldn't want Jenson put into the Massa /Barichello role, having to actually slow down and let the team mate past, not until he's way ,way out of the championship. I don't think Whitmarsh would order it even then and Button wouldn't comply if he did. Well he's said he wouldn't. But there arent many ocassions when Button gets into a position to help Lewis so its a bit of a moot point. Going faster and taking points off Alonso and Vettel would be a nice start.
Ive not voted , cos its not a simple yes or no.
Certainly there would have been a lot of calls for that, but if Hamilton has balls in his bag he'd have ignored them the same way as Button would now.
racecub
Champion Elect
MCLS Yes absolutely. The rule, should they decide to employ it, should be a rule regardless of which driver is leading and both drivers should have had the situation explained to them before it becomes necessary to employ said rule.....Which is what I dislike about the Alonso and Schumacher situation, because the lead driver was chosen right at the start before points were scored.
It depends how you define supporting role, because in certain cases Button can be at the front and Hamilton behind and still benefit Lewis, like in a situation like Germany but where Lewis was 5th/6th, if Button had managed to take Alonso late on, that'd still be benefiting Hamilton because Button was taking points off Alonso (and to an extent taking points off the Red Bulls as well). I think whether he should or not should be determined on a race by race basis depending on whether Button and Hamilton are in the race/qualifying. If you get too preoccupied with driver order and who is supporting who, it could work out detrimentally and mean that McLaren don't get any championships whatsoever
After Spa I think they should decide, then it should be more clearer.
You just have to look at both Red Bull drivers and then Alonso in the Ferrari to understand what needs to be done. Both Red Bull drivers are taking points off of each other (a bit like 2009), while Alonso has the teams full backing and is the clear number 1, so has the best circumstances to maxmise his points tally. If McLaren don't do this, then it's sayonara to the WDC for Lewis Hamilton.
But then they've been craving to get the Constructors title for so long now, if they implement this, then, their situation for the season can become like Ferrari's, with one driver scoring the majority of the points. They are only 53 points behind in the constructors, and not making a clear number 1 and letting them both fight for wins and podiums, then the motivation will be high for both drivers, and more points will come for the Constructors Championship.
So the best for McLaren would probably be to make a compromise between the two, don't leave it too late, but don't make the decision too early. If Button finishes the way he did in Hungary in comparison to Hamilton for the next two races. Then they should really throw all their weight behind Lewis Hamilton.
You just have to look at both Red Bull drivers and then Alonso in the Ferrari to understand what needs to be done. Both Red Bull drivers are taking points off of each other (a bit like 2009), while Alonso has the teams full backing and is the clear number 1, so has the best circumstances to maxmise his points tally. If McLaren don't do this, then it's sayonara to the WDC for Lewis Hamilton.
But then they've been craving to get the Constructors title for so long now, if they implement this, then, their situation for the season can become like Ferrari's, with one driver scoring the majority of the points. They are only 53 points behind in the constructors, and not making a clear number 1 and letting them both fight for wins and podiums, then the motivation will be high for both drivers, and more points will come for the Constructors Championship.
So the best for McLaren would probably be to make a compromise between the two, don't leave it too late, but don't make the decision too early. If Button finishes the way he did in Hungary in comparison to Hamilton for the next two races. Then they should really throw all their weight behind Lewis Hamilton.
Dizzi
Podium Finisher
I think it's fairly immaterial as Jenson won't play the team game.
In 2010 when he was out of the running but Lewis still had a sliver of a chance he was asked if he'd support his team-mate & the answer was no.
There have been several occasions over the last couple of years which show Jenson races for Jenson, not the team & not to help his team-mate. Silverstone this year was a classic, hold up Lewis yet let Romain whizz past.
It's too early to have an absolute number 1 when both drivers are very capable (unlike Ferrari) of a shot at wins.
Practically though McLaren should be maximising the lead driver's potential without being detrimental to the other (Hungary was a team cock-up not a Jenson one), of course if they're 1-2 with Jenson in front it would be logical to give Lewis the extra 7 points but would Jenson yield a win? - hell no & I wouldn't blame him.
In 2010 when he was out of the running but Lewis still had a sliver of a chance he was asked if he'd support his team-mate & the answer was no.
There have been several occasions over the last couple of years which show Jenson races for Jenson, not the team & not to help his team-mate. Silverstone this year was a classic, hold up Lewis yet let Romain whizz past.
It's too early to have an absolute number 1 when both drivers are very capable (unlike Ferrari) of a shot at wins.
Practically though McLaren should be maximising the lead driver's potential without being detrimental to the other (Hungary was a team cock-up not a Jenson one), of course if they're 1-2 with Jenson in front it would be logical to give Lewis the extra 7 points but would Jenson yield a win? - hell no & I wouldn't blame him.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
If the team tells him to yield, and he doesn't I would blame him. After all the team is his employer. At most jobs ignoring a direct order from your boss gets you fired. At least when not following the order has serious implications for the company. And if not following a team order would mean Hamilton lost the WDC, I'd say that's a serious implication.
RickD
Pole Sitter
Wombcat - Why would that be a serious implication? Surely McLaren being a racing team want to win the constructors first and the WDC second, therefore, they would be getting the same amount of points from a 1-2 no matter which way around the drivers finished. I would say it was up to Jenson whether he let Lewis through or not. I would also agree if it was the other way around, so this has nothing to do with who I support.
I think a win should be earned, never given.
I think a win should be earned, never given.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
Even if the WCC is the main target, the WDC still is a secondary target. Losing the secondary target due to an employe not doing what you want them to do, is a serious implication.
You forget that the WDC is quite prestigous (more prestigous than the WCC) and winning it also reflects to the team. I'm quite sure the sponsor would be very happy if a McLaren driver wins the WDC, because they can use it in their advertising. And the sponsor pays the team.
And keep in mind that I said that if McLaren gave the signal, and Button didn't obey, then I'd hold it against him. If he doesn't obey his boss in such such a situation, he's a bad employee. And don't forget that driving that McLaren in the first place, puts him in position to win. Winning is not just a driver-effort, it's a team effort.
And if it was the other way around, I'd say the same (in fact I was one of the few on the board who agreed with Ferraris' decision in Hockenheim 2010. I'd have done the same thing if i was teamboss at Ferrari, although I would have made sure the drivers knew beforehand what to do in that situation, so I wouldn't have to radio the signal).
You forget that the WDC is quite prestigous (more prestigous than the WCC) and winning it also reflects to the team. I'm quite sure the sponsor would be very happy if a McLaren driver wins the WDC, because they can use it in their advertising. And the sponsor pays the team.
And keep in mind that I said that if McLaren gave the signal, and Button didn't obey, then I'd hold it against him. If he doesn't obey his boss in such such a situation, he's a bad employee. And don't forget that driving that McLaren in the first place, puts him in position to win. Winning is not just a driver-effort, it's a team effort.
And if it was the other way around, I'd say the same (in fact I was one of the few on the board who agreed with Ferraris' decision in Hockenheim 2010. I'd have done the same thing if i was teamboss at Ferrari, although I would have made sure the drivers knew beforehand what to do in that situation, so I wouldn't have to radio the signal).
Ok own up. Who here works for The Sky Sport Website ?
http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/7952286/
http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/7952286/
I find this conversation curious.
Most people seem to be saying that, in this case, team orders and subordinating one driver to another would be all sweetness and light. In the past, when that was being done by other teams, it was roundly decried. Doesn't that amount to a double standard?
I think team orders are wrong, any time, any team, any driver. Orders cheapen the very concept of competition.
Most people seem to be saying that, in this case, team orders and subordinating one driver to another would be all sweetness and light. In the past, when that was being done by other teams, it was roundly decried. Doesn't that amount to a double standard?
I think team orders are wrong, any time, any team, any driver. Orders cheapen the very concept of competition.
racecub
Champion Elect
I agree with that and think they should be banned. But its difficult when some teams employ them very blatently and you have to compete with those teams. My general feeling is you drive your own race and you're given equal opportunity to do well (helping the team and team mate if and when possible when it doesn't compromise your own position) But towards the end of the season, when one driver is in with a good chance and the other is pretty much out of it, then Id expect that driver to do everything to help the other and to score team points. And that's whichever driver in whichever team.
Which speaks volumes about Ferrari's legacy then.
Incubus
Champion Elect
It depends what you mean by "supporting role". Another three or four races and at this rate Button driving immediately in front of Hamilton would have to let him through, no question about that. That's what every other team would and McLaren are no different in that respect. As to what they SHOULD do that's entirely up to them.
It's no good comparing that situation with the Ferrari one as others have done because Massa hasn't proved capable of either supporting or competing against his team-mate anyway.
It's no good comparing that situation with the Ferrari one as others have done because Massa hasn't proved capable of either supporting or competing against his team-mate anyway.
Personally I don't think either driver will win the WDC this year so it make little difference what Jenson does Lewis said to his dad before Hungary "I will have to win the next ten races to win the championship this year"
And anyway if you think back to 2010 when Jenson was out of the championship at the end and Lewis was still in it he was asked "Will you be helping your team mate if you can?" and he said "No I drive for myself"
So even if he should he wont.
Also Lewis has stated in the past that he wouldn't want to win the championship with help from his team mate. (This was when Vettel was given Webber's front wing at Silverstone.)
So to be honest I think the question is moot....
And anyway if you think back to 2010 when Jenson was out of the championship at the end and Lewis was still in it he was asked "Will you be helping your team mate if you can?" and he said "No I drive for myself"
So even if he should he wont.
Also Lewis has stated in the past that he wouldn't want to win the championship with help from his team mate. (This was when Vettel was given Webber's front wing at Silverstone.)
So to be honest I think the question is moot....
Just spotted this
http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/07/31/button-not-ready-to-help-hamilton-in-title-bid/
Linked to from JB's facebook site.
http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/07/31/button-not-ready-to-help-hamilton-in-title-bid/
Linked to from JB's facebook site.
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