Lotuses

Il_leone

Champion Elect
I refuse to call them "Lotus" having lost the rights to use the name. Also I can see Dany Bahar screwing the team up which he is already fighting a losing battle with Fernandes

I think the name "Lotus" will be tarnished if they dare to use it. They've got other problems as well Renault I think are owed money for the engines and they have stated they are looking to provide only 2 teams in the future and the favourites seems to be Red Bull - obvious and Williams maybe preferred over them
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
I was expecting this on the Heidfeld thread

Senna has sponsors and the name helps

I refuse to call them "Lotus" having lost the rights to use the name. Also I can see Dany Bahar screwing the team up which he is already fighting a losing battle with Fernandes

I think the name "Lotus" will be tarnished if they dare to use it. They've got other problems as well Renault I think are owed money for the engines and they have stated they are looking to provide only 2 teams in the future and the favourites seems to be Red Bull - obvious and Williams maybe preferred over them

I would rather see Fernandes running a team under the name Caterham. Let's face it. Neither are the original Team Lotus but Bahar has a very legitimate right to use the name Group Lotus. Fernandes is piggy backing off of a brand. If you want the road car to with it you have to buy it off of Bahar.

Back to the thread. Great to see "Senna" back in a black and gold Lotus.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
I would rather see Fernandes running a team under the name Caterham. Let's face it. Neither are the original Team Lotus but Bahar has a very legitimate right to use the name Group Lotus. Fernandes is piggy backing off of a brand. If you want the road car to with it you have to buy it off of Bahar.

Back to the thread. Great to see "Senna" back in a black and gold Lotus.

Okay neither do but you feel the team under Fernandes understand what Lotus means to F1 whereas Bahar is only using it to sell roadcars and history says it rarely works if you fail to deliver on track

I hope Fernandes owning QPR is not going to take his eye off the ball for team Lotus
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Okay neither do but you feel the team under Fernandes understand what Lotus means to F1 whereas Bahar is only using it to sell roadcars and history says it rarely works if you fail to deliver on track

I hope Fernandes owning QPR is not going to take his eye off the ball for team Lotus

I like both teams. I think the argument is childish. If I were Fernandes, I would have walked away from it.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Here's a picture of Elio de Angelis in a Lotus:

Apex.jpg
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
I don't understand what Fernandes is gaining from peddling the Lotus name. He's just giving Bahar free advertising, is he not?

Caterham is a good idea, though, that would be awesome.

Makes sense given that Caterham is a brand in it's own right and a true departure from the original Lotus 7. Given that he wants to flog Caterhams it makes no sense running round in a shirt with Lotus written on it, let alone paying tens of millions to race cars with Lotus written on them.

Childish tit for tat and Fernades really were the bigger man he would have risen above it. They are as bad as each other.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
I love the Lotus brand but I don't like the disassociation of the F1 Team from the road cars. For this reason, like them or not, I back Group Lotus in the use of the Lotus brand.

Equally, I would wish Team Air Asia all the best under the Caterham brand.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
I prefer Fernandes' team..the people who join the team are all there because they feel honoured to working and trying to revive a legendary name of F1

I don't see that with Bahar and his vision...." Lotus Renault" are neither "Lotus" or " Renault"
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
I prefer Fernandes' team..the people who join the team are all there because they feel honoured to working and trying to revive a legendary name of F1

I don't see that with Bahar and his vision...." Lotus Renault" are neither "Lotus" or " Renault"

It's not a legacy. It's a brand. As a brand, Bahar has the bragging rights. I would much rather see the brand that was torn apart in the 80's reconciled. The legacy of Team Lotus is on the tombstone of Colin Chapman.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
I don't understand what Fernandes is gaining from peddling the Lotus name. He's just giving Bahar free advertising, is he not?

Caterham is a good idea, though, that would be awesome.

NO he is actually embarrassing Bahar who had been convincing his bosses at Proton that banding the Group Lotus name would be good to sell roadcars..that is his vision. The fact he lost the rights to use the emblem and the name is further embarrassment because all that money should have been used to support the team " Renault" rather than arguing through a court room

Bahar's vision has not convinced me he will be in it for the long term and there are plenty of disgruntled engineers leaving Enstone..how far has the team falllen
I found it absolutely pathetic that Team Lotus were intending to use black and gold livery having announced so and the idiot Bahar decides his"team" should bring their car out with the livery

If anyone's been childish is Bahar
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
It's not a legacy. It's a brand. As a brand, Bahar has the bragging rights. I would much rather see the brand that was torn apart in the 80's reconciled. The legacy of Team Lotus is on the tombstone of Colin Chapman.

Not according the courts he does not on the F1 grid at least. This is going to be a PR disaster for Dany Bahar and Proton. The troubles at " Renault" makes you wonder what he intends to do with the team ..this is the same guy who use to work for Red Bull. I don't see the team keeping Kubica either if he does come back. THey will not get anywhere in trying to run on a small budget if they want to compete with the front
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
NO he is actually embarrassing Bahar who had been convincing his bosses at Proton that banding the Group Lotus name would be good to sell roadcars..that is his vision. The fact he lost the rights to use the emblem and the name is further embarrassment because all that money should have been used to support the team " Renault" rather than arguing through a court room

Bahar's vision has not convinced me he will be in it for the long term and there are plenty of disgruntled engineers leaving Enstone..how far has the team falllen
I found it absolutely pathetic that Team Lotus were intending to use black and gold livery having announced so and the idiot Bahar decides his"team" should bring their car out with the livery

If anyone's been childish is Bahar

We'll agree to disagree on this one. They both made an agreement. They both dishonoured thier agreements and they both made a meal of things. I'm not going to point the blame at either of them. As I said, the whole debacle was embarrassing for the sport and they were as childish as each other.

Fernandes effectively won the name battle through squatters rights after Bahar rented them the brand and then retracted the agreement at the halfway point of the agreement.

I would love to see Fernandes bring his motor companies name into F1. Caterham have a legacy born from the same ashes and it would be a much more dignified way to go about his business in the sport.

All that said, I realise I am unlikely going to change your opinion and you are certain not to change mine. I understand where you are coming from, but I weigh things up very differently.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Not according the courts he does not on the F1 grid at least. This is going to be a PR disaster for Dany Bahar and Proton. The troubles at " Renault" makes you wonder what he intends to do with the team ..this is the same guy who use to work for Red Bull. I don't see the team keeping Kubica either if he does come back. THey will not get anywhere in trying to run on a small budget if they want to compete with the front

One response is enough. Let's move on. I've said my bit and listened to yours. I remain unmoved.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
We'll agree to disagree on this one. They both made an agreement. They both dishonoured thier agreements and they both made a meal of things. I'm not going to point the blame at either of them. As I said, the whole debacle was embarrassing for the sport and they were as childish as each other.

Fernandes effectively won the name battle through squatters rights after Bahar rented them the brand and then retracted the agreement at the halfway point of the agreement.

I would love to see Fernandes bring his motor companies name into F1. Caterham have a legacy born from the same ashes and it would be a much more dignified way to go about his business in the sport.

All that said, I realise I am unlikely going to change your opinion and you are certain not to change mine. I understand where you are coming from, but I weigh things up very differently.
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THe "Lotus" under Fernandes is moving upwards but at least there is a spirit within that team they are all proud to be involved

Fernandes is not the first person in F1 to renege an agreement..Red Bull dropped Ferrari engines after1 season because they proved the deal was with Red Bull Corporation not Red Bull racing..several drivers have had contract disputes..some bosses have changed their minds about drivers , engines , sponsors and made u-turns and breaks

The "??" under Bouillier which Bahar is overseeing is sliding down the grid - it must get depressing or frustrating every day for that after the early season start

Thats the difference
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Or we could look at it this way. There would be no Renault Team without Bahar and Group Lotus' partnership with Genii Capital after the actions of Flavio, Symonds, Piquet and Alonso all but destroyed thier team sending thier title sponsors and many others desperate to distance themselves from the organisation.

I would not like to see this team and all it's employees buried due to the actions of a few. The Renault name only exists in F1 now through legacy. The engines are being rebranded as infinity and the car as Lotus. Two brands owned and run by Bahar. There is nothing untoward about that. It's common sense good business. They licenced the name to Tony Fernandes who got so carried away with it that he thought he owned it. Bahar wasn't happy and retracted the license deciding that it would be better to have a control over the use of his brand in F1. Fernandes done a sneaky and dug out the old Team Lotus name and bought it to make a point in protest. Everything else is a ridiculous battle of egos and has absolutely nothing to do with the original Lotus. Don't be fooled by the propaganda from each camp.

Group Lotus should remain Group Lotus, Lotus Racing should become Caterham F1 or some such, and Team Lotus should remain consigned to the history books where it's rightful place is.

I know I said I wouldn't respond, but hey. :cheers:
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Agree with Ninja on the Caterham completely. Isn't that why he bought them so he has that to fall back on?

I keep calling the Renault but if they have to change lets make them Proton shall we.
 
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