no. Fiat Panda
Lotuses
- Thread starter Il_leone
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and do you think Ferrari should call themselves Fiat?
Off topic, but I think Alonso's car should be referred to as a Ferrari and Massa's as a FIAT.
Nice. Out of interest would you know where this was taken? Spa?
Speaking of Elio De Angelis, Autosport run a feature this week and appear to shed some new light on the circumstances surrounding his death. Unlike Williamson he apparently had very little fuel in his car so the fire (which was confined to the back of the car) was manageable but shockingly most of those who arrived at the scene thought he was beyond saving and began to walk back, including Prost and Mansell. Also one the medical guys on the scene didn't speak English and in the end got out a big syringe and stuck it in his chest. WTF
I think its at the Nurburgring but cannot confirm!
I've no idea where the picture of Elio was taken but I can tell you it's a 97T, which was the first car in F1 to feature turning vanes or barge boards as we call them these days.
The long and the short of the Lotus argument is that Bahar and Fernandes should have worked together to build the team up using all the skills and resources they could muster. As it is now, I think there is a real chance that the Bahar Lotus Renault could end up going down the tubes while taking group Lotus down with it.
The Fernandes team has cut it's cloth accordingly and is building up in the right direction while Bahar thought that he could jump into a proven team and ride it all the way to the top. Also, Group Lotus is investing a huge amount of money into other series such as ALMS / GT Racing, Indy Racing, The GP2 series etc, There has been talk of expanding the current KV Racing tie up in Indy to move towards a full blown works Lotus indy outfit. No one seems to be able to explain where Group Lotus are going to get all the money to do this and still afford to build 5 new models in the next two years. With Lotus Renault struggling and that being the highest profile brand in the portfolio it doesn't say much for the rest of their plans. With the current financial climate and the fact that every other year sees Proton take massive cash injections from the Malay government to keep things running, I can only see the Bahar / Group Lotus connection ending and Group Lotus being sold (at best).
The long and the short of the Lotus argument is that Bahar and Fernandes should have worked together to build the team up using all the skills and resources they could muster. As it is now, I think there is a real chance that the Bahar Lotus Renault could end up going down the tubes while taking group Lotus down with it.
The Fernandes team has cut it's cloth accordingly and is building up in the right direction while Bahar thought that he could jump into a proven team and ride it all the way to the top. Also, Group Lotus is investing a huge amount of money into other series such as ALMS / GT Racing, Indy Racing, The GP2 series etc, There has been talk of expanding the current KV Racing tie up in Indy to move towards a full blown works Lotus indy outfit. No one seems to be able to explain where Group Lotus are going to get all the money to do this and still afford to build 5 new models in the next two years. With Lotus Renault struggling and that being the highest profile brand in the portfolio it doesn't say much for the rest of their plans. With the current financial climate and the fact that every other year sees Proton take massive cash injections from the Malay government to keep things running, I can only see the Bahar / Group Lotus connection ending and Group Lotus being sold (at best).
I think Fernandes has emerged out of this whole farce better than Bahar.
The picture is taken at the Nurburgring - it's on Elio's Wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elio_de_Angelis_im_Lotus-Renault_1985-08-02.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elio_de_Angelis_im_Lotus-Renault_1985-08-02.jpg
Il_leone
World Champion
Indeed he has. Fernandes is Bahar's worst nightmare..if you mention his name to Dany he tends to get defensive according to one of my previous threads on Dany from an article on James Allen's website
Tony Fernandes has not resorted to cheap shot tactics that Bahar has with reverting to Renault as " Lotus Renault" and entering the team as a British team as well bringing out the car in black and gold livery that Fernandes originally wanted to.
Fernandes' response was the fans decided they prefer traditionally green and yellow so we will stick to that
Bahar losing the court case is ever more embarrassing to try and explain his bosses he did not waste their time and money in trying to promote the Lotus brand
The decline of Renault is ever more embarrassing because there are questions asked about what his intentions are..its not happy camp....
Did it escape you that Renault have left F1? Renault are no longer in F1. They left. The only thing Renault about the team you refer to is thier contractual obligation to the FIA to carry the name of thier previous owners.
Also, the only thing Lotus about the Green team you refer to is an invoice,
I'm not stating a preference for either team, but this is how it is. It seems you are a victim of propaganda.
Yes but the car is effectively still a Renault inspite of livery and I think this is what II Leone alluded to. Apart of engines, they still make use of Renault's intellectual property. Fernandes revived and created more brand identity.
Let's be honest, both teams are about as much Lotus as "Pacific Team Lotus" were. Badge engineering of the worst kind. What next, Vanwall, BRM, Brabham? All great names with a fantastic history but anyone using the name today would be but a hollow shell of the original team.
The guy that bought what was left of Super Aguri put an entry in under the Brabham name for 2010. Glad that didn't happen.
Only one that is different is the Tyrell name as the team still exists - I kinda wished Ross Brawn had gone with Tyrell for 2009 rather than Brawn as it would have really made the historical stats look odd!
Only one that is different is the Tyrell name as the team still exists - I kinda wished Ross Brawn had gone with Tyrell for 2009 rather than Brawn as it would have really made the historical stats look odd!
The Chapman family are still making a good earner from it all so swings and roundabouts. No one is really denigrating the name despite all the legal arm wrestling and this is all that matters. Imagine if crashgate had happened under Lotus Renault? Anyway it's good to see that modern F1 still hasn't lost sight of history.
Colin Chapman push the bounds of the rule book and technology but I can't think of any occassions where he blantantly cheated. Crashgate would have been bad for the Lotus name but I think it was a bit of a stinker for Renault as well.
Indeed so. One wonders what would have happened to Flavio if NPjnr had been injured or worse in Singapore. Also, wasn't Frank Williams charged with man slaughter following Senna's death? I don't recall a similar witch hunt against the Simtek team owner over Roland Ratzenberger's fatal crash, maybe I just missed it.
Hmm. you might be right. was a dodgy under-engineered steering column (most likely cause) for Senna's death. Frank was besides himself with guilt for many years. the exact cause of the accident was never proven or determined to a point of certainty. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not much of a historian.
This was when they were Renault and owned by Renault, was it not? what did Lotus and Bahar have to do with it?
I'm saying that despite all the legal wranglings, no one is really damaging the Lotus name as would've been the case had crashgate happened under the current setting. I think to call it badge engineering of the worst kind is a bit of an overreaction.
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