Lotuses

[ExtremeNinja]

This is all getting a bit wierd. Why are we imagining crashgate happening under Lotus. Why not imagine it under Force India, McLaren, Ferarri or any other randomly selected team? In fact, conversely, why imagine it at all?

The current owners of the former Renault team are trying to repair damage done to the team under thier former leadership. They are in no way associated with the disgusting actions in Singapore and it is odd that you are doing this. even if it's only hypothetically.

 

[Quintessentially]

Jeez.

 

[FB]

My comment about badge engineering was more to do with the fact that Lotus was, and always will be, Colin Chapman's team. Even the few years after his death Lotus was never the team it had been under Chapman, despite Peter Warr's best efforts. To apply the lotus name to any other team, to me, is not right.

The only teams that have survived without their founders are Ferrari and McLaren. Ferrari is a brand in it's own right and, especially after the Fiat take over, was always going to survive Enzo. I'm sure some feel that the modern Ferrari team, and it's road cars, have something missing since the Commendatore died. McLaren, after Bruce McLaren's death, was kept going in his memory by Teddy Mayer but the current team owes more the Ron Dennis' Project 4 team than it does to McLaren and Mayer.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Jeez.

How do I respond to that?

 

[FB]

I would suggest, don't. I think there might have been a misunderstanding about the hypothetical discussion so probably best if we all leave it there.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Let's be honest, both teams are about as much Lotus as "Pacific Team Lotus" were. Badge engineering of the worst kind. What next, Vanwall, BRM, Brabham? All great names with a fantastic history but anyone using the name today would be but a hollow shell of the original team.

By that token Mercedes are the only true returnee team. Still ultimately owned and directed by the original entity in spirit, right?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

My comment about badge engineering was more to do with the fact that Lotus was, and always will be, Colin Chapman's team. Even the few years after his death Lotus was never the team it had been under Chapman, despite Peter Warr's best efforts. To apply the lotus name to any other team, to me, is not right.

If it were called Team Chapman, I would understand that. However, Lotus are a car manufacturer. The same can be said of Ferrari. McLaren, however, are an exception to the rule as they have only produced road cars in more recent years.

 

[Quintessentially]

My comment about badge engineering was more to do with the fact that Lotus was, and always will be, Colin Chapman's team. Even the few years after his death Lotus was never the team it had been under Chapman, despite Peter Warr's best efforts. To apply the lotus name to any other team, to me, is not right.

The only teams that have survived without their founders are Ferrari and McLaren. Ferrari is a brand in it's own right and, especially after the Fiat take over, was always going to survive Enzo. I'm sure some feel that the modern Ferrari team, and it's road cars, have something missing since the Commendatore died. McLaren, after Bruce McLaren's death, was kept going in his memory by Teddy Mayer but the current team owes more the Ron Dennis' Project 4 team than it does to McLaren and Mayer.

Of course Lotus will always be Chapman’s team. I don’t think I think Fernandez or Bahar are trying to change this or recreate history. In fact since gaining a place on the grid, Fernandes has made good efforts to preserve the Lotus name, despite any commercial rewards this might have brought or the subsequent legal tussle.

These days, Ferrari is officially registered as Scuderia Marlboro Ferrari (for McLaren read Vodafone McLaren Mercedes). I wonder what Messrs Ferrari and Bruce McLaren would’ve made of it all. The world has moved on and so should we. Personally as an avid fan, I see the re-emergence of these old school names on the grid as a major positive even if you disagree but you will find many examples of certain historical elements of F1 being replicated in different forms, not just teams operating under old brands. As long as it’s not denigrating the name, that’s all that matters.

 

[teabagyokel]

Indeed so. One wonders what would have happened to Flavio if NPjnr had been injured or worse in Singapore. Also, wasn't Frank Williams charged with man slaughter following Senna's death? I don't recall a similar witch hunt against the Simtek team owner over Roland Ratzenberger's fatal crash, maybe I just missed it.

I believe Newey and Head were both charged with manslaughter after Senna's death. Of course, if Piquet was seriously injured and testified against Flavio, then I think a life ban from F1 would have been the least of his worries, and the same goes for Pat Symonds.

 

[Il_leone]

Pushed the bounds of moral responsibility too. To be charged with manslaughter is really quite something.

As much as Chapman was a genius he always pushed the boundaries in making the cars go faster and sometimes with dangerous results... when rear wings wre introduced he realised the vibrations from the engines was damaging and cracking the mounted piece of the wing

I would have loved to see Chapman vs Newey today to see who comes out on top

Chapman's philosophy was to be better in designing cars than anyone else

THe one time he cheated and so did every other British team in 1982 was the water bottle row incident where Piquet and Rosberg were disqualified for underweight cars because they had a water bottle which dispersed during the race and was topped up before scrutineering to make the "weight" limit so the car was underweight throughout the race.

This lead to all British teams with Ford Cosworth engines to not enter San Marino GP because they said they needed time to design new cars except Tyrell because of Italian sponsors.

IT was a row between the British teams (I think lead by Bernie) using Cosworth DFV engines with brilliant designers up against the grandees - Ferrari, Alfa, Renault with turbos. The British press were accused of taking backhanders from Renault for exposing that what the British teams did was illegal.
After that the concorde agreement was formed with FOCA ( now FOTA)

 

[Il_leone]

The team based at Enstone formerly Toleman and Benetton is made up from full of fakes

"Renault" - the team is allowed to use the name by Renault but there are minority shareholder in all of this

"Lotus" - Apart from the squabble with Fernandes. It can't even use the badge and its chassis is not called "Lotus"

the black and gold strip is a rip off from the original JPS Lotus Renault and was not even their idea after Fernandes declared intention to use only to have it scuppered by the early launch under Bahar

the team have entered "Renault" as a British team and not a French team this season

to top it off they are now going to put " Senna" in a " Lotus - Renault" although this is not the legendary Ayrton but his nephew Bruno

Imitation is the cheapest form of flattery

 

[Cookinflatsix]

to top it off they are now going to put " Senna" in a " Lotus - Renault" although this is not the legendary Ayrton but his nephew Bruno

To be fair, it would be rather hard to put the legendary Ayrton back in the car

 

[ExtremeNinja]

The team based at Enstone formerly Toleman and Benetton is made up from full of fakes

"Renault" - the team is allowed to use the name by Renault but there are minority shareholder in all of this

"Lotus" - Apart from the squabble with Fernandes. It can't even use the badge and its chassis is not called "Lotus"

the black and gold strip is a rip off from the original JPS Lotus Renault and was not even their idea after Fernandes declared intention to use only to have it scuppered by the early launch under Bahar

the team have entered "Renault" as a British team and not a French team this season

to top it off they are now going to put " Senna" in a " Lotus - Renault" although this is not the legendary Ayrton but his nephew Bruno

Imitation is the cheapest form of flattery

Lotus-Renault are a British team so why not enter as a British team. Once again, they are no longer Renault, who were clearly French. (Both are financed by Malasians but the companies are registered and operate in Britain.

The Black and Gold is certainly a rip off of the old Lotus but so is the green and yellow so no points won or lost by either camp there.

Who is to say that they both hadn't decided to run black and gold independently? You?

I think you are letting your allegiances filter the wisdom.

 

[Il_leone]

To be fair, it would be rather hard to put the legendary Ayrton back in the car

yes but see my point about fakes

 

[ExtremeNinja]

The team based at Enstone formerly Toleman and Benetton is made up from full of fakes

yes but see my point about fakes

Nope? I think the point needs more explanation.

 

[Il_leone]

Nope? I think the point needs more explanation.

None of the team's make up is real

Its a complete cheap imitation of 1985 -1986 Lotus Renault with "Senna" at the wheel

As for the black and gold..Fernandes made it known towards the end of last season Lotus was going to be Gold and black before Bahar comes along and says we're sponsoring Renault and entry is "Lotus Renault"

 

[Quintessentially]

Fernandes had some good ideas but I think he and Bahar would've been surprised by the sudden rise in popularity of the Lotus. He was guilty of revealing his hand too quickly (especially that gold and black idea) and effectively became the guinea pig for Bahar to capitalise.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

None of the team's make up is real

Its a complete cheap imitation of 1985 -1986 Lotus Renault with "Senna" at the wheel

As for the black and gold..Fernandes made it known towards the end of last season Lotus was going to be Gold and black before Bahar comes along and says we're sponsoring Renault and entry is "Lotus Renault"

That is a very simplistic and selective view. I think as far as our discussions go on this, we will definitely have to agree to disagree. For me there is a much bigger picture than each of the "tit for tat" blows. History tells us that if we do not look at things holistically then facts and sequences of events and their outcomes are open to interpretation and manipulation. I would prefer only to comment on what I know and not presume to know the surrounding facts and those which are not public knowledge.

Fernandes had some good ideas but I think he and Bahar would've been surprised by the sudden rise in popularity of the Lotus. He was guilty of revealing his hand too quickly (especially that gold and black idea) and effectively became the guinea pig for Bahar to capitalise.

The black and gold wasn't an idea concieved by either team. It was the result of JPS sponsorship of Team Lotus in the eighties. Both parties saw it as something they could capitalise on.

If Fernandes speaks the truth, he was not going to run it anyway. He put it to the fans and they voted for the green.

 

[Quintessentially]

The black and gold wasn't an idea concieved by either team. It was the result of JPS sponsorship of Team Lotus in the eighties. Both parties saw it as something they could capitalise on.

.

The point was about reviving the colour scheme and the idea was originally mooted out by Fernandes. Why do you deliberately go out of your way to antagonise debates? Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about F1 history would know that the current Renault livery is historically linked to JPS and the original Lotus. I mean a picture of Elio De Angelis has already been posted on this topic on the previous page with this very same livery. Sigh

 

[Mezzer]

I refuse to call them "Lotus" having lost the rights to use the name.

Presumably you could call them "Loti" and you would be both gramatically and legally correct.

The declensions of Lotus:
Singular: Lotus, Lote, Lotum, Loti, Loti, Loto
Plural: Loti, Loti, Lotos, Lotorum, Lotis, Lotis.

Ah, how I miss Latin not in the slightest ...