Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

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Mephistopheles said:
sushifiesta How on earth could Lewis have won in Spain when his race pace was so abysmal?
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Hamilton was the only driver able to do a two stop strategy in Spain, everyone else did three or four. If he had started from pole he would have done a three stop strategy, and his "pace" would have been quicker. So, not only did Lewis qualify on pole by a massive margin (even considering the marginal fuel) but his car was the easiest on its tyres.

How on earth could Lewis not have won in Spain? Obviously anything can happen in a race, but everything points to the fact that the Lewis/McLaren package was well ahead of the rest that weekend.

EDIT: Yet again I'm beaten to it, this time by teabagyokel. I need to get in training...

EDIT2: Also, as this thread is about comparing Lewis and Jenson, how about the fact that Lewis finished ahead of Jenson in Spain despite starting 13 places behind him? Doesn't sound like abysmal pace to me....
 
He could have got a slow start and been held up. His car could have reacted differently on heavy fuel. The other set of tyres could not have suited the Mclaren. A squirrel could have ran across the track and he could have sweerved to avoid it.

I'm not saying he might not have won it but sushifiesta I know you are smart enough to understand that pole position by any margain does not equal a race win.

The fact is you have no idea what would have happened in Spain if Lewis had started on pole - no one has - frankly its an even sillier discussion than me going on about them both watching Homeland.
 
And while this is off topic, racecub, if you recognise that other drivers have had misfortune it makes you more rather than less convincing. 5 mechanicals*, and one first-lap Grosjean collision allowing you to pick up only 2 points in the 7 races of the season that your car was anywhere near good is unfortunate in anyone's books. That is Schumacher's record.

*Including his DRS failure that left him out in Bahrain Q1
 
I'm not saying I do know but I do remember the team saying they could not understand the lack of pace in the car at the time but still it doesn't really matter at the end of the day it's ancient history and nothing can change it....

To be honest I don't know why I allowed myself to be drawn into this pointless debate I usually stay well clear of them.

I'm with Jen on this one, I give up........
 
teabagyokel said:
And while this is off topic, racecub, if you recognise that other drivers have had misfortune it makes you more rather than less convincing. 5 mechanicals*, and one first-lap Grosjean collision allowing you to pick up only 2 points in the 7 races of the season that your car was anywhere near good is unfortunate in anyone's books. That is Schumacher's record.

*Including his DRS failure that left him out in Bahrain Q1
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Yes I agree. Schumacher has had some very bad luck, Im not denying it. He's also caused problems himself. Thats where he differs from Hamilton and thats the point I was making. Still a lot of bad luck accepted.
 
The Artist..... said:
I deliberately didn't mention either JB or LH in my answer because I felt that ...
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1. You did mention them in a different post as continuation of the same topic and conversation
2. In that very post where you say you didn't mention them, you refereed to "the two McLaren" drivers. Surely you didn't mean their test drivers.
3. This is the JB and LH thread and so if they were not the topic of conversation, or at least reference point, then we wouldn't even be having the conversation.
4. It is general consensus that Lewis has a wide operating window in which he can extract performance from an F1 car, which you seem to agree with. Everything else you have said leads me to believe that you don't think Lewis provides valid or useful information to his engineers. Is this the case and, if so, what is it that has led you to believe this?
 
Mephistopheles said:
sushifiesta How on earth could Lewis have won in Spain when his race pace was so abysmal?
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I would grant you that Lewis had an almost impossible task to come from 24th, to a race win at Spain.....but.....If Hamilton's race pace as you say was abysmal.......how would you describe Jenson's race pace who had started 14 positions ahead of Lewis, but managed to finish one position behind him by the end of the race?
 
RasputinLives said:
I'm not saying he might not have won it but sushifiesta I know you are smart enough to understand that pole position by any margain does not equal a race win.
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Of course, anything can happen in a race and this is why when I've posted similar things on the Hamilton thread I now refrain from speculating about the points lost. However, I was pushed to in this case and I do think that based on his qualifying performance on Saturday and his ability to manage the tyres on Sunday he was the strong favourite to win in Spain were it not for being under-fuelled.
 
ExtremeNinja said:
1. You did mention them in a different post as continuation of the same topic and conversation
2. In that very post where you say you didn't mention them, you refereed to "the two McLaren" drivers. Surely you didn't mean their test drivers.
3. This is the JB and LH thread and so if they were not the topic of conversation, or at least reference point, then we wouldn't even be having the conversation.
4. It is general consensus that Lewis has a wide operating window in which he can extract performance from an F1 car, which you seem to agree with. Everything else you have said leads me to believe that you don't think Lewis provides valid or useful information to his engineers. Is this the case and, if so, what is it that has led you to believe this?
Click to expand

You seem to want to just fight here.

1. I deliberately did not make reference to either driver with respect to being either good or bad at development.
2. When I did mention the drivers, it was to say that neither of the drivers possessed the level of both feedback and ability to drive around problems which drivers like Schumacher did in his prime.
3. I was merely answering a general question about why it might not be ideal to have a driver who drives around problems rather than tries to develop out of that problem.
4. You jumped on the word "simply" on my previous post, as it is a turn of phrase to illustrate a point. This is NOT to say that Hamilton does not give good feedback, but rather that he is renowned to be adaptable to circumstances, but adapting to circumstances CAN (and DOES) lead to development blind alleys. As such, the ideal F1 driver is one who gives perfect feedback AND at the same time drives around problems. In my opinion, NEITHER McLaren driver matches that description. Do you disagree?
 
Hamberg
There have been plenty of circumstances where a team has gone down the wrong path in terms of development

It happens all the day...although not everyone one of them is visible like

Williams with the Walrus nose in 2004

Mclaren with the mid wing in 1995

Ferrari in 2005 suffered from over reliance on BRidgestone to provide supreme tyres and got trounced

This year Mclaren were fast with the conventional nose but everyone kept saying the platypus nose actually was worth a 10th of a second at least ....when Mclaren switched over they had a slump they could not resolve until Germany

Mercedes with their double DRS is a good example - great speed and also able to generate immediate heat into the tyres but poor in the races due to high tyre wear


Surely KERS and double diffusers is a great example how most teams were caught on the hop on rules they did not interpret propery

Also what about the F Duct - brilliant for circuits with long straights but no good on slow circuits
 
And the blown diffuser which gets banned leading to Red Bull not being as competitive but I'm not sure that is relevant to this thread which I am loathe to post on anyway....:p

Edit

Well I don't mind as long as I don't get drawn into a circular debate.....
 
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