Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[Il_leone]

never mind
-

as for the two men we've yet to see actually battle head to head like Prost vs Senna and Hamilton vs Alonso yet which would an ever greater edge

We know Hamilton has an occasional impulsive moment with his opinions ...you wonder when will it be when he explodes and causes serious problems for Mclaren...who have been there before so its nothing new to them

 

[Mephistopheles]

Maybe that is something they are trying to avoid, and for the sake of keeping this thread on track I would say that Hamilton has comprehensively out qualified Button, and so it stands to reason that seeing as their respective results at McLaren are so similar the only conclusion I can come to is that Jenson has comprehensively out raced Lewis...

Ducks for cover..........

 

[MCLS]

Well it depends what you mean by out-raced. I wouldn't say one has comprehensively been quicker than the other on a general scale in the race,

 

[Mephistopheles]

I'm sorry I was being factious as it seems to me that this thread holds no value in reality.....

 

[MCLS]

It wouldn't be as fun if it was

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Perhaps this thread should have come with a warning:

 

[racecub]

In the interests of sanity perhaps we should all ascribe to the view that Button is a fantastic Human Being, a great racing driver and well worth being payed more than Hamilton. If we all agree to that we wont need to round in circles and keep visiting threads we dont actually like.To make it a little easier to accept here's some logic to help:-

Qualifying- What's so great about going fast over one lap? its the racing that counts.
Seven week non point scoring slump- Car's fault
Leading team up blind ally on set up - Thats a blip, he's usually great
Inability to warm up and maintain tyres- Thats a blip, he's usually great
Crashing into other cars -thats only an issue if Hamilton does it
Whinging and moaning about the car- That was justified, its Hamilton who might explode.
Having to take team-mates data when lost on set-up- Share and share alike (unless regarding functioning of new wing)

So with all that misfortune Button is only a little bit behind Hamilton. He's doen really well.
But what about all the misfortune Lewis has undergone this season I hear a few little voices cry?Well select one of the following options and repeat it over and over in yout head until you feel better
a) His luck has been no worse than anyone else's
b) This is motor racing
c) You make your own luck
d) He should be more careful around other drivers
ThereNow we can all feel better and move on.

 

[The Pits]

Ok.

No one is being forced to comment on this thread. It is not productive to comment on this thread merely to say how upset you are at commenting on this thread.

If you do not wish to visit this thread, please feel free not to.

If you decide that you are going to visit this thread, and feel the need to make a comment, please make sure that your comment is not:

Disparaging to other members of this forum
Likely to be taken as inflammatory

Please make sure that your comment is:

Respectful of other users, and their opinions
Non inflammatory

Please do not feel you need to hold back, but by the same token, do not get upset by those of differing opinions.

There has been some really healthy lively debate on here, so please let's not spoil it by getting pointlessly daft.

 

[F1ang-o]

racecub
Well said..........

 

[Viscount]

And the blown diffuser which gets banned leading to Red Bull not being as competitive but I'm not sure that is relevant to this thread which I am loathe to post on anyway....

Edit

Well I don't mind as long as I don't get drawn into a circular debate.....

At 12:00 Pirelli Motorsport Director Paul Hembery talks a bit about the loss of Red Bull and McLaren's loss of downforce from flexi-wings and diffusers, and briefly mentions Jenson's tyre temp issues at the start of the season and his Spa qualifying which keeps it's slightly relevant to this thread.

The 20 degree temp difference he mentions one car had between their front and rear tyres is pretty excessive.

 

[RasputinLives]

There has been some really healthy lively debate on here, so please let's not spoil it by getting pointlessly daft.

Dam it! that rules out the whole post I had planned about Jenson and Lewis being at odds over who their favourite member of the Avengers is.

 

[RasputinLives]

In the interests of sanity perhaps we should all ascribe to the view that Button is a fantastic Human Being, a great racing driver and well worth being payed more than Hamilton. If we all agree to that we wont need to round in circles and keep visiting threads we dont actually like.To make it a little easier to accept here's some logic to help:-

Qualifying- What's so great about going fast over one lap? its the racing that counts.
Seven week non point scoring slump- Car's fault
Leading team up blind ally on set up - Thats a blip, he's usually great
Inability to warm up and maintain tyres- Thats a blip, he's usually great
Crashing into other cars -thats only an issue if Hamilton does it
Whinging and moaning about the car- That was justified, its Hamilton who might explode.
Having to take team-mates data when lost on set-up- Share and share alike (unless regarding functioning of new wing)

So with all that misfortune Button is only a little bit behind Hamilton. He's doen really well.
But what about all the misfortune Lewis has undergone this season I hear a few little voices cry?Well select one of the following options and repeat it over and over in yout head until you feel better
a) His luck has been no worse than anyone else's
b) This is motor racing
c) You make your own luck
d) He should be more careful around other drivers
ThereNow we can all feel better and move on.

You missed out the bit where Jenson has a strop over being out qualified by his team-mate and releases private team data on the internet.

Oh no - that wasn't him was it.

and before the "they should have given Lewis the same set up" argument comes out - Lewis is amazing and drive round a cars problems where as Jenson has to have the perfect set up apparently so it seems only logical Mclaren would try things out with him. I mean Lewis is going to be great whatever right?

 

[Hamberg]

Thanks Il_leone I was more interested in the theory that driving around issues can prevent a team from taking the correct development path given the debate around whether this can hinder a teams development.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the examples you've given are more to do with fairly significant developments that are likely as the result of design engineer/wind tunnel tests rather than not developing or developing the wrong thing due to a driver providing the perception all is well?

 

[The Pits]

I would suggest that the point is far more simple.

Jenson had set up issues. Lewis did not. Lewis won in Canada, and got pole (I know) in Spain. Jenson was nowhere. This to me suggests, that rather than lewis driving round an issue, that he did not have an issue. Jenson did.

The car fell behind the pace of development, and recovered around Germany time.

So, I believe that, as sensitive as Jenson may be to set up, it was all at sea from around Spain/Monaco, rather than it highlighting his inabilit to drive round issues. Lewis was better suited to the way the car was handling for him at the time. I find it hard to believe that such a significant gap between two drivers such as these two can be explained as simply as one driver being able to drive around issues, and more conceivable that one driver had fewer issues with the car at the time. That is not to simplify the nature of those issues.

 

[Lewywo4]

racecub
Well said..........

I'll double that

............ .............

 

[Quintessentially]

Jenson's sensitivity to setup and imperfect machinery are well known and obviously didn't start at McLaren. Remember all the bitter complaints in the Brawn after it lost its double diffuser advantage. Maybe he's just scared it might hurt or just can't drive fast with a slightly dislodged gurney flap. And you know that McLaren has serious pace when a driver not celebrated for his one lap pace and hasn't been on pole position for over 3years suddenly qualifies 3tenths ahead of the nearest challenger. I think if placed in Ferrari's current predicament he'd probably be doing worse than Massa, and Alonso is probably one of the greatest of all time when it comes to driving around issues.

 

[The Pits]

Jenson's sensitivity to setup and imperfect machinery are well known and obviously didn't start at McLaren.

Or is this one of the myths that get trotted out at regular intervals? seen to be true because it is said so often? similar to mr smooth tyre manager, which people usually disagree with? Maybe based on his start at Williams, before he fully understood the value of focussing on working with the engineers to set the car up correctly?

I would suggest that saying maybe he is scared is a cheap shot.

 

[Hamberg]

Brilliant. Another serious debate destroyed.

 

[Incubus]

Not quite sure where this is heading but I just thought I'd let it slip that bButton before joining McLaren was never before particularly renowned for his set-up abilities.
Indeed it was widely considered during their time together at Brawn that the bulk of the set-up work fell to Barichello.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

It's no myth. Jenson is very candid about it himself. In every post race interview he will either have had a fantastic result and be telling you how they got the setup just right and how the car was beautiful to drive or, on the other hand, he will have had a disappointing result and will tell you how the car was unbalanced and they couldn't quite find the sweet spot, too much understeer, oversteer, poor traction.

Some people like to have a go and say he's making excuses but I think that's childish. I just take him at face value.