Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[sushifiesta]

racecub Mephistopheles If we simply look at the reasons for finishes outside the points, Jenson and Lewis compare as follows:

Times Jenson has finishes outside the points:
Malaysia - Crash caused by Button (by his own admission).
Bahrain - Car issue.
Monaco - Crash caused by Jenson's frustration about being stuck behind Kovalainen.
Canada - Button completely lost with car setup.
Italy - Car issue.

5 finishes outside the points, 3 at least partly caused by Jenson.

Times Hamilton has finished outside the points:
Europe - Crash caused by Maldonado.
Germany - Puncture caused by debris from an accident Lewis wasn't involved in.
Belgium - Crash caused by Grosjean.
Singapore - Car issue.

4 finishes outside the points, none caused by Lewis.

I think Hamilton clearly comes out on top in this regard in terms of misfortune, and if you look at other issues during the season which have still allowed finishes in the points then I think Lewis again has had more issues out of his control (a gearbox failure in China and the under-fuelling issue in Spain spring to mind, whereas the only thing I can think of for Jenson is a couple of slow pit-stops, which Lewis has also been the victim of).

I think I've been fair?

 

[Mephistopheles]

I would argue that Lewis didn't loose that many points in Europe or Spain as in my view if you take the fact that in Europe Vettel and Romain would have finished in front of him had they not have their own issues and Maldonado, Schumacher and Kimi and possibly even Webber would have past him before the end of the race because his tyres were shot, giving at best 7th place and at worst 8th and in Spain even without the penalty he would have probably finished wear he did anyway as both Lewis and Jenson were more than two and a half seconds off of the race pace....

Which is why I say you can't take one drivers misfortunes in isolation you have to look at everything that happens....

And I think that I'm being fair.....

 

[racecub]

Lewis managed his tyres in Spain and came from last to eigth. How can you say that starting from pole he would have dropped to eigth?? And Spain wasnt even one of the examples Shushifiesta gave since Lewis still managed to crawl into the points.

Valencia-last lap crash, he'd likely have been 4th as other cars were losing tyres too. Without the pitstop drama earlier which meant he had to wreck his tyres re-overtaking cars he could have been fighting for the win. But thats conjecture, fact is he was taken out and scored nothing.

 

[RasputinLives]

I think I should be fair......

Lewis didn't tell Jenson the end of Homeland. Lewis doesn't even watch Homeland - he tried but he couldn't follow it.

 

[sushifiesta]

Well if you want to look at points Mephistopheles then, again looking at the non-points finishes only, Jenson probably missed out on 18pts at Monza and 10pts in Bahrain, to give a total of 28pts (he wasn't in contention for points at Malaysia, Monaco and Canada if my memory serves me correctly). Hamilton probably lost 25pts in Singapore, and if I'm pessimistic only 4pts in Belgium, 4pts in Germany and 4pts at Valencia, to give 37pts total. I have been particularly harsh on Lewis I think, yet still that's 9pts more he's lost than Button.

With a less pessimistic look at Hamilton's misfortune and including issues he has had at places like China (gearbox), Bahrain (pit-stops), and particularly Spain (under-fuelling), where he almost certainly lost a race win, you can easily get up to him losing 80pts due to no fault of his own. I haven't done a similar in depth evaluation like this of Button's misfortune but I don't think you'd get to half that value.

Personally I think there's no doubt that Hamilton has been faster, more consistent and had more bad luck than Button this year.

 

[Hamberg]

I will not accept that Button not being able to drive around a problem is of more benefit to the team than Hamilton who can because Button is not masking an issue. Being able to drive a car with less then perfect setup or with any setup is the sign of a driver with a super special ability rather than just being a great driver.

Straw clutching to the extreme.

 

[The Artist.....]

Hamberg


If you are trying to develop a car, then having a driver who simply masks issues by driving around them could lead to a fruitless development dead-end. If you have a driver who instantly notices when something doesn't feel right, then it is advantageous to the team. The ideal situation would be to have a driver who can identify exactly how much that it does feel right AND can drive around the problems.... However, I don't think that either McLaren driver can say they can do that! - However, I think Schumacher (in his prime) probably could do just that....

 

[ExtremeNinja]

then having a driver who simply masks issues by driving around them could lead to...

I have emboldened the part of your statement where I see a flaw. It you see this as simple then you are probably not looking at the whole problem.
What makes you think that Jenson's feedback to engineers is any more valuable than Lewis', also?

 

[Incubus]

To be fair a lot of these issues don't carry anywhere near as much importance as they used to. If you think of the period say, mid-eighties when telemetry was essentially non-existent compared to what it is today, they were free to test as much as they could afford, and a driver's technical feedback abilities were much more important than they are today. The driver's "feel" was still the ultimate parameter.
Today they have sensors that monitor everything in the car you care to mention. The team read the data real-time.

 

[Hamberg]

And there is an implication that Hamilton being able to drive around a problem is masking an issue therefore doesn't even notice there is one. Given he's driving around 'it' in itself highlights 'it' exists.

So no a driver who can make a less than perfect car drive well is not a hinderence, he is way more of an asset than a driver who struggles adapt to slight changes. I'm not saying Hamilton isn't impacted as he is, but much less so than Button.

 

[sushifiesta]

I don't think any of us are qualified enough to state whether the fact that Lewis is able to drive around a problem means he doesn't know it is there in the first place.

EDIT: Great minds think alike Hamberg

 

[RasputinLives]

If a tree falls in the woods with no one there to hear it does it make a sound?

 

[Mephistopheles]

Lewis managed his tyres in Spain and came from last to eigth. How can you say that starting from pole he would have dropped to eigth??

Because like I said his race pace was nowhere his quickest lap was 2.6 seconds slower than Maldonado's and the other front runners nobody could win a race or even get on the podium doing laps that slow compared to their competitors even if they started on pole, If you don't believe me look it up for yourself.... and as for Spain I think you must have been watching a different race Lewis was 2 - 3 seconds a lap slower than the drivers behind him and getting slower by the corner even if Kimi and Michael hadn't have got past him (which I think they would have easily.) you are not taking into account Vettel and Ronain's retirement and Maldonado making a clean pass so there is no way on earth he could have finished fourth...

Once again you are polarising your argument to suit your point of view instead of seeing the whole picture...

 

[Slyboogy]

You mention Maldonado-all of his own making except the last race where he drove well and I actually felt sorry he didnt finish.
Schumacher-much of his own making.

Hm...I never realised that five mechanical retirements out of seven means that most of Schumacher's retirements where "of his own making".

 

[cider_and_toast]

Reminds me of a story that was in Peter Warrs biography. Ronnie Peterson told Warr that his Lotus 72 was suffering from huge understear so Warr took a walk out to one of the longer turns on the circuit to see how the car looked. He watched Peterson scream through the corner with the back end hanging out and sliding around. Getting back to the pits he told Ronnie that he must be wrong because he'd seen his car go through that bend with massive oversteer. Oh I know said Ronnie but thats the problem, the car understeers so badly that I have to throw it into a slide just to get it around the corner. Warr used the story to show how good Ronnie was at driving around problems. Hedid say that this was to the detriment of his ability to set up the car.

With modern F1 cars a lot more sensitive to changes, I don't think you could get anywhere near the top if you couldn't do set up. I don't think it's enough to just drive around problems anymore. Hamilton is just that much quicker on top of the cars setup because of raw talent. I think you can liken Hamilton / Button to Clark / Hill or Senna / Prost in terms of their approach to arriving at the same point. The first driver in each pair seemed to have more raw speed while the second driver was attributed with more craft. It's an interesting how each new generation produces an inter-team relationship along the same lines.

 

[Mephistopheles]

sushifiesta How on earth could Lewis have won in Spain when his race pace was so abysmal?

 

[The Artist.....]

I have emboldened the part of your statement where I see a flaw. It you see this as simple then you are probably not looking at the whole problem.

I deliberately didn't mention either JB or LH in my answer because I felt that the position I was taking was very much the extreme position where you have 1 driver who is simply driving round problems and not feeding them back, with the other being ultra-sensitive to the car, and unable to drive round problems...

These do not 100% apply to either driver in McLaren - but as I say, the only driver in the modern generation who showed consistently the ability to provide excellent feedback AND to drive around problems was Schumacher - and I'm really not a fan!

 

[racecub]

Hm...I never realised that five mechanical retirements out of seven means that most of Schumacher's retirements where "of his own making".

But there have been more than 7 races. Its surely 5 mechanical retirements out of 14. Not good I grant you. It doesnt negate what I said though MUCH of his own making. Not all but much. He's been involved in quite a few accidents as well.I didnt bring Scumacher into the debate, I just responded to someone who said he was adriver who'd had as much misfortune as Lewis. Lewis hasn't caused any of his that was the point, Schumacher is responsible for some of his.

 

[RasputinLives]

But there have been more than 7 races. Its surely 5 mechanical retirements out of 14. Not good I grant you. It doesnt negate what I said though MUCH of his own making. Not all but much. He's been involved in quite a few accidents as well.I didnt bring Scumacher into the debate, I just responded to someone who said he was adriver who'd had as much misfortune as Lewis. Lewis hasn't caused any of his that was the point, Schumacher is responsible for some of his.

lame

 

[teabagyokel]

Mephistopheles - You cannot use the fastest laps of each driver at Barcelona to prove that point. If you do, you will find that Hamilton was only faster than the Marussias and HRTs, of those that finished. The pace was caused by the two-stop strategy that got him from the back to 8th.

Had he started on pole and three-stopped, we don't know what is pace was. It is senseless correlating with Button, who was struggling for set-up at that stage of the season.

I feel it is extraordinarily unlikely that he suddenly went from pole with a fuel-assisted half-second cushion to two-and-a-half seconds down without strategy coming into play. Losing three seconds from qualifying to race? No chance.

Frankly, you're being as disingenuous saying he'd have probably finished 8th anyway as racecub is saying he'd have won the race guaranteed. I don't know, you don't know, no-one knows.