Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[The Artist.....]

ExtremeNinja - after our contretemps yesterday, I'm surprised to say that I agree completely with you! on this!

- I think there's something to be said about distinguishing between someone who's very sensitive to set up changes, and someone who can respond to that sensitivity....

I don't know about anyone else, but I suspect that even had Hamilton had the same set-up as JB in Spa, then I suspect that JB would have won - he was just so much better that weekend than anyone else - largely because he and the team had hit the sweet-spot on the setup! (Or at least the combination of set-up which was perfect for JB in the car). We probably hear about JB's setup problems more because small issues affect him more.....

 

[The Pits]

ExtremeNinja I agree with that comment, however, the two points are not necessarily linked, indeed, many drivers will say very similar things, yet not get tagged in the same way. I put it in the same bracket as the tyre master thing, there is not any significant evidence that shows he is greatly different from any other driver in that regard, yet the tag sticks, and gets trotted out when convenient, e.g at Singapore, going longer on the Super softs, it came out, I think the same is true with the sensitivity to set up, I am not sure this is any more true, certainly I am not sure he is significantly worse than many other drivers who are not tagged in the same way. That said, there are drivers who are better at dealing with handling imbalances, and he happens to be in a team with one of the best.

Interestingly, I can recall an interview with the two drivers, I cannot remember when, and Jenson said he admired Lewis' ability to get a good time out of a car which was not balanced, and Lewis said, it may not be balanced for you... Lewis said that he was impressed with the way Jenson could make a set up change to the car and find the extra time.

So, sensitive to set up? possibly, anymore than the majority? not so sure. will the tag stay with him? almost certainly.

Incubus there was a lot of talk at Brawn about Barrichello's set up, and I believe that Rubens was one of the best, certainly that is something that Williams were very complimentary of, so if you were in a team with him, you would tend to listen to his opinion. Not sure what that says to me about his ability, less than Rubens, most likely, but then, not sure where that ends things!

 

[Incubus]

Indeed The Pits but anything to do with set-up issues is the sort of thing we cannot possibly know the truth of, and we rely on quotes from team-bosses and engineers on that since we don't actually see what's going on

It's just that I find it all a bit curious to read on here all that stuff about Button's set-up abilities because that was not something we heard at all before he joined McLaren. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[The Pits]

Agreed Incubus however, I have not seen too many comments from team bosses, although Ross Brawn was quite complimentary, or enginners either way, but lots on forums and from journalists on the subject.

It would be tricky to be in F1 for 12 years without picking up a thing or two though.

 

[Incubus]

It would be tricky to be in F1 for 12 years without picking up a thing or two though.

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From what I understand it's more like something drivers are naturally good at rather than an experience thing. Some in the past like Lauda, Prost or Piquet were from day one noted for.their set-up abilities.
I think I already mentioned it on here but "Competition Driving" co-written by Prost is an absorbing read and offers a wealth of information on the subject of car set-up.

 

[The Pits]

I may have to read that book.

 

[riskitall]

ExtremeNinja - after our contretemps yesterday, I'm surprised to say that I agree completely with you! on this!

- I think there's something to be said about distinguishing between someone who's very sensitive to set up changes, and someone who can respond to that sensitivity....

I don't know about anyone else, but I suspect that even had Hamilton had the same set-up as JB in Spa, then I suspect that JB would have won - he was just so much better that weekend than anyone else - largely because he and the team had hit the sweet-spot on the setup! (Or at least the combination of set-up which was perfect for JB in the car). We probably hear about JB's setup problems more because small issues affect him more.....

not so sure about that.i mean since then lewis has out qualified button twice in a row.
we said after spa,if lewis and jenson have the same wings,lewis will outquaify jenson again in monza,and thats what happened.
jenson had never outqualified lewis by that amount before.but lewis has outqualified jenson by that much before quite a few times.
really it should have been 2 wins in a row for lewis since spa.both have had the same wings since spa.i think that speaks for itself.
jenson drove well in spa,but ppl got carried away with the result.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

...or celebrate the result, as one should when an F1 driver puts in a clean race to the flag and victory.

 

[Quintessentially]

Or is this one of the myths that get trotted out at regular intervals? seen to be true because it is said so often? similar to mr smooth tyre manager, which people usually disagree with? Maybe based on his start at Williams, before he fully understood the value of focussing on working with the engineers to set the car up correctly?
I would suggest that saying maybe he is scared is a cheap shot.

I don't think it's a a myth as Jenson has alluded to this in many interviews.

I would suggest that saying maybe he is scared (it might hurt) was a joke.

 

[The Pits]

For the myth thing, please see my previous posts on the subject.

As for the joke, apologies, I missed that.

 

[Quintessentially]

No need to apologise at all. I’ll add a smilie next time so pardon my incompetence.

 

[The Pits]

No incompetence, just presumtion on my part

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Do we need a new mutual apology love-in thread?

 

[Quintessentially]

Anyway, when you consider the fact that the last time Jenson was on pole was Monaco in 2009, it really places the whole Spa pole into context. It is also no coincidence that it has taken him nearly 3years at McLaren to achieve this. He then gets half of his rivals wiped out in the first corner and I don’t think the win was nothing more than what you’d expect from a very experienced driver in a car that had a significant performance advantage due a number of factors. Vettel made his way up from 10th on the grid to 2nd after all.

 

[The Pits]

I dont think his qualifying performances are in doubt, well, not from me anyway.

As for the race, I guess this is one we will never know.

 

[Il_leone]

ExtremeNinja Jenson is nowhere near as bad as Mansell was who use to complain about something all the time even when he was winning

Jenson's sensitivity to a car set up means he will be either totally perfect or absolutely undriveable..its a great skill to have especially in uncertain conditions where everyone has to find grip as always higlighted under damp conditions with him

 

[RasputinLives]

Does todays news mean the death of this thread at the end of the season?

Will it be replaced with a "Nico Rosberg is rubbish, and stupid, looks like Britney Spears and he's not even German!" thread?

Will Ross Brawn suddenly have his sexuality questioned?

How will we decide who is better at saving tyres between Button and Perez?

All this and more on next season Clip The Apex!

 

[MCLS]

I find it humorous that Hamiltons first win for Mercedes would mean that the British national anthem would be played before the German one!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Il_leone.

I didn't say Jenson was complaining nor did I say it was a bad thing. I just said that he was very open about his sensitivity to setup.

 

[RasputinLives]

Not the Swiss national anthem then? *runs away quickly*