Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[The Artist.....]

I didn't suggest anything.
I posted the lap chart and showed that Hamilton lost almost 10 seconds compared to Button.

The only problem with "Point 41" is that this is the lap Hamilton stopped - so this doesn't give a good representation of the true pace on the intermediates.... (The cars were doing about 1:52-1:53 on them at the time)...

 

[Viscount]

Prior to the stops, LH was 14 seconds behind Alonso.

After the stops, LH was 18.9 seconds behind Alonso.

He lost a total of 4.9 seconds to Alonso during the stops.

Hindsight is a WONDERFUL thing. It still doesn't change the fact that he would, at best, have been 14 seconds behind Alonso if they had stopped on the same lap!

I think the point is that it shouldn't have been hindsight. The first 2 cars to gamble and pit for dry tyres were on lap 37. Once everyone could see that dry tyres were much faster they brought their drivers in. Something that McLaren clearly knew when they told Button to come in on lap 39: Pit » BUT: "Okay. Some cars have switched to slick tyres and they are quicker. We think it's ready for slicks."
Hamilton was the very last car on track to switch to dry tyres on lap 41. I even remember the commentators chuckling at the fact that Caterham briefly set the fastest lap because they were one of the early cars to switch to dry tyres.

 

[Brogan]

I believe McLaren who said even those at the back were lapping 5 seconds a lap faster.

That being the case, there is no justifiable reason why they left Hamilton out for two laps longer than Button.

 

[Vortex]

Did Mclaren ever say why they pitted him when they did? I've not heard anything.

 

[The Artist.....]

I think the point is that it shouldn't have been hindsight. The first 2 cars to gamble and pit for dry tyres were on lap 37. Once everyone could see that dry tyres were much faster they brought their drivers in. Something that McLaren clearly knew when they told Button to come in on lap 39: Pit » BUT: "Okay. Some cars have switched to slick tyres and they are quicker. We think it's ready for slicks."
Hamilton was the very last car on track to switch to dry tyres on lap 41. I even remember the commentators chuckling at the fact that Caterham briefly set the fastest lap because they were one of the early cars to switch to dry tyres.

No, I would absolutely agree - I thought it was madness that they weren't changing to slicks even before lap 37! - So I don't need convincing that the slick tyres were better - furthermore - the thing that was stopping them changing onto slicks was because of the forecast shower (which never came)... I just find it laughable that anyone would suggest that LH was being sabotaged by his team - what's most likely is that he was asked "We think it's going to rain - do you want to switch to slicks..." Certainly, this wasn't a case of JB being called in first - as they could easily have stopped them on the same lap (Since they were hardly running nose to tail!)... Remember also that earlier in the race, JB had come straight in when the safety car pulled in - and the only reason he ended up ahead of LH was because of a stuffed up pitstop!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

It is impossible to argue with. It's as stupid as getting dressed before you get out of the bath.

 

[Vortex]

furthermore - the thing that was stopping them changing onto slicks was because of the forecast shower (which never came)... !

Makes sense! A gamble that it would come, that they lost. But might have won if it had.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

No, I would absolutely agree - I thought it was madness that they weren't changing to slicks even before lap 37! - So I don't need convincing that the slick tyres were better - furthermore - the thing that was stopping them changing onto slicks was because of the forecast shower (which never came)... I just find it laughable that anyone would suggest that LH was being sabotaged by his team - what's most likely is that he was asked "We think it's going to rain - do you want to switch to slicks..." Certainly, this wasn't a case of JB being called in first - as they could easily have stopped them on the same lap (Since they were hardly running nose to tail!)... Remember also that earlier in the race, JB had come straight in when the safety car pulled in - and the only reason he ended up ahead of LH was because of a stuffed up pitstop!

To avoid speculation, this ought to help:

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/jenson-button-vs-lewis-hamilton.4734/page-14#post-117777

I'm not suggesting conspiracy, by the way, just incompetence.

 

[Viscount]

No, I would absolutely agree - I thought it was madness that they weren't changing to slicks even before lap 37! - So I don't need convincing that the slick tyres were better - furthermore - the thing that was stopping them changing onto slicks was because of the forecast shower (which never came)... I just find it laughable that anyone would suggest that LH was being sabotaged by his team - what's most likely is that he was asked "We think it's going to rain - do you want to switch to slicks..." Certainly, this wasn't a case of JB being called in first - as they could easily have stopped them on the same lap (Since they were hardly running nose to tail!)... Remember also that earlier in the race, JB had come straight in when the safety car pulled in - and the only reason he ended up ahead of LH was because of a stuffed up pitstop!

I don't believe McLaren would intentionally to sabotage Hamilton either, I just can't see a logical explanation as to why he was kept out so long?

I posted the radio transcript here: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/jenson-button-vs-lewis-hamilton.4734/page-14#post-117777

I could understand if they thought because it may rain again Hamilton should stay on the inters as long as possible, but if you look at the lap times for each individual car they were going about 10 seconds faster per lap on new dry tyres than worn inters. Plus Button even said that the worn inters wouldn't work if it rained again and the Pit said they thought it was the right thing to do to switch to slicks.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

surely we don't need to wheel Ali G out to help us make sense of what everyone can see as clear as day

You just did, and the insinuation is a giant leap.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I am putting forward an explanation for MW to counter the unspoken allegation that everyone knows about and that LH himself has hinted at

 

[Brogan]

I am putting forward an explanation for MW to counter the unspoken allegation that everyone knows about and that LH himself has hinted at

Everyone?

You're going to have to spell it out as I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I am putting forward an explanation for MW to counter the unspoken allegation that everyone knows about and that LH himself has hinted at

Don't speak on my behalf, buddy. I've not heard this allegation since the days of 606 and I don't throw accusations around lke that lightly.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I am putting forward an explanation for MW to counter the unspoken allegation that everyone knows about and that LH himself has hinted at

Don't speak on my behalf, buddy. I've not heard this allegation since the days of 606 and I don't throw accusations around lke that lightly.

Ah. Hang on. I've misread your post. To whom are you refering to as the source for this allegation against Whitmarsh, though? It's a new one on me. To put it another way and be perfectly clear, who called Martin Whitmarsh a racist? Who are you defending him against in your post?

 

[RasputinLives]

To be honest I genuinally offend that such an accusation is made about an individual that you know nothing about

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Everyone?

You're going to have to spell it out as I'm not sure what you mean.

I think everyone can tell that MW would prefer JB as the face of McLaren, JB is his protege

Boxing, football and many other sports have all gone thru a process where the fans craving to see the best available talent have overcome the desires and visions of an older and archaic management generation.

 

[Jen]

I think everyone can tell that MW would prefer JB as the face of McLaren, JB is his protege

Don't be silly, JB is too old to be anyone's protege!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Don't be silly, JB is too old to be anyone's protege!

That is not necessarily true. It has been said that McLaren have a desire for Jenson's involvement with McLaren to extend far beyond his racing career. In senior management, a protege can be of quite an age. Jenson is only 32. A whipper snapper in terms of large corporate business. It does, however, depend on whether that is what they have in mind for him, though.

 

[Vortex]

Woah! I just got it too! Do not even go there Cookinflat mate! Seriously!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Woah! I just got it too! Do not even go there Cookinflat mate! Seriously!

To be fair to Cookin, and I can't believe I'm saying this, he has accused others of accusing Whitmarsh of being a racist. Who these others are though, and "everyone" is supposed to know this, remains a mystery to me. I think that we deserve some clarification.

So who are these people with these unspoken accusations? Come on Cook, spit it out.