But there is no evidence or indication at all that he was slower than he should have been. Not a shred.
Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton
- Thread starter Brogan
- Start date
- Status
But there is no evidence or indication at all that he was slower than he should have been. Not a shred.
He was behind Sergio Perez in a Sauber and although you're concluding from the lap times he car was quicker there is also not a shred of evidence to suggest the conditions would suddenly make a car that was 1.2 seconds slower than Lewis in quali a quicker car so you have to conclude that Perez out drove Hamilton which is why I'm saying I believe he is quicker than that because I do not believe that Sergio Perez in those conditions is that much a faster driver than Lewis Hamilton.
Maybe I'll be proved wrong one day but right now thats what I'm thinking.
I don't think you'll be proved wrong, but I must say the evidence you provide for your thinking is extremely simplistic, to say the least. That said, I don't think I'm going to change your thinking and I don't think I can offer much more to sway your conclusions so we've probably exhausted this particular line of conversation and will have to agree to disagree.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Race pace =( Quali speed + race day conditions) / inappropriateness of setup for conditions
Edit: this is a qualitative and not quantitative algo so please don't try it at home
Edit: this is a qualitative and not quantitative algo so please don't try it at home
Nothing to do with Malaysia, but I thought I should add my thoughts to this thread...
I think Lewis is sometimes a victim of his own flexibility. Whilst Jenson really struggles with a car that isn't just how he likes it, Lewis is much more likely to just get on with it and have fun driving round the problem. With strategy and managing tyres now being much more important with the Pirellis, the current rules probably favour Jenson who I perceive to be more sensitive to small changes in the car's behaviour.
I think Lewis is sometimes a victim of his own flexibility. Whilst Jenson really struggles with a car that isn't just how he likes it, Lewis is much more likely to just get on with it and have fun driving round the problem. With strategy and managing tyres now being much more important with the Pirellis, the current rules probably favour Jenson who I perceive to be more sensitive to small changes in the car's behaviour.
Which actually may go some length to explain why Jenson was unable to adapt overnight to a race which was run in very different conditions to qualifying whereas Lewis was. It's a double edged sword in both cases.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Jenson wasn't struggling with his car till he crashed, it was only after he pitted and went on a charge to catch up that he wasted his tyres
I don't think you'll be proved wrong, but I must say the evidence you provide for your thinking is extremely simplistic, to say the least. That said, I don't think I'm going to change your thinking and I don't think I can offer much more to sway your conclusions so we've probably exhausted the conversation and will have to agree to disagree.
Fair enough. I just think people (especially where Lewis is concerned for some reason) are always looking for the complexed reason. I think sometimes it is as simple as someone having an average day and I think Lewis had one on Sunday. I also think that Alonso and Perez had exceptional days. Alonso has quite a few of them (but then so do Lewis and Jenson).
I just think if you went to Lewis and said "I think you had a near pefect race yesterday" he'd laugh and tell you he could drive much better - I think he'd say the same thing about Melbourne too. i don't think he'd try and tell you it was about clutch problems and set ups he'd say he could drive better - and I believe he can - and will. I think thats why we've seen him so subdued on the podium this year(which I don't like but kind of understand) because if he came second behind Vettel last year he knew there was nothing more he could do - I think in both races this year he knows in his heart of heart he could have won.
I think he would tell you that he was happy with his drive and made the most of his situation given the circumstances on the day
For your information, he has already said that it was down to clutch problems and going the wrong way with his front wing set-up in Melbourne.
I agree with Cook on this one (everyone dies of shock) I don't think Jenson was struggling with the car this weekend - not until after he lost his nose cone anyways. I think Jenson made and error then in trying to hard to recover it made another by messing his tyres up.
He said himself he hadn't performed this weekend.
Actually he said his bad start was down to the clutch problem. Which is probably true. I don't think he said thats why he didn't perform the whole race. Nor would I ever think he would.
One place where Lewis does get my total respect is he's not one that blames his own bad performances on car issues - which is why it annoys me when everyone else tries to do it for him
Based on your other posts, I have to say I'm extremely surprised at the stance you have taken.
I thought you had a better understanding of F1 than that.
You have completely dismissed the conditions as if they are irrelevant.
Weather and track conditions dictate the set-up.
*shrugs"
I thought you had a better understanding of F1 than that.
You have completely dismissed the conditions as if they are irrelevant.
Weather and track conditions dictate the set-up.
*shrugs"
Once again, Lewis said that the reason for his difference in pace in Melbourne was that he had gone a different way with the front wing in terms of set-up. He analised the data with the team after the race and it could be seen that he had less traction out of corners due to having to much front-end bias on the car.
This is not an assumption. It is reported and documented. I can find some links and quotes. They won't be hard to dig up.
He does, however, take responsibility for this.
On both days though, he raced what he had and got the most he could out of it. If he didn't have the pace on raceday, it was down to decisions made on Saturday. No amount of hindsight can fix that.
I think we all expected the McLaren to be relatively quicker on Sunday, but there is bigger picture than driver ability on the day. If it was all down to driver ability we would see all drivers complete races in the same order every weekend and all finish the races in thier qualifying positions.
One of the things I love about the sport is it's complexity and the vast number of variables that can effect the various outcomes.
I haven't dismissed the conditions as if they are irrelevent and I'm not counting them out (notice I haven't mentioned Alonso) I've just never seen such a massive swing in car performaces before as we saw between the Sauber and the Mclaren on the Sunday. Now if Kobi had been up there as well I might have just agreed but I can't understand how the conditions have swung Perez who on average was half a second a lap down on Lewis(not counting Q3 because I don't know if Perez did a proper run) to be half a second a lap faster. Whilst I accept that conditions and set-ups certainly would have made a difference I don't believe they could have made that much of a difference. Hence I'm putting it down to Sergio performing out of his skin and Lewis not performing to his peak a little.
I am in now way saying Lewis was rubbish/awful but just disputing the fact that his performance was brilliant as stated early or that he had a near pefect race as stated earlier
All three drivers performed well. However, the conditions must allow for you to perform and the ceiling at which you can perform is determined by the conditions and the suitability of your equipment in those conditions. Clearly, and I mean clearly, the conditions allowed for both Alonso and Perez to perform - particularly Perez. With Alonso, I think circumstances, more than conditions, were on his side but they certainly favoured him more on Sunday that they did on Saturday - conversely to Hamilton and a handfull of other drivers.
I guess I believe what I believe.
I just think an on form Lewis would have been lurking not far behind them - maybe I am being naive
I just think an on form Lewis would have been lurking not far behind them - maybe I am being naive
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Why are you so surprised though by the differential? LH was faster than JB, SP was faster than KK, SP was faster than LH, KK was faster than JB
Conclusion? The Suaber was faster than the McLarens under those conditions probably due to set up. This happens regularly and is where many a surprise win has come from, Vettel in the SR and Buttons maiden win quick examples
quali pace is never equal to a full race pace, not even in the dry when nothing changed since quali , let alone different conditions
Conclusion? The Suaber was faster than the McLarens under those conditions probably due to set up. This happens regularly and is where many a surprise win has come from, Vettel in the SR and Buttons maiden win quick examples
quali pace is never equal to a full race pace, not even in the dry when nothing changed since quali , let alone different conditions
Too many pies?
lol - I edited so quick no one else will get that!
- Status
