Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton
- Thread starter Brogan
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Cookinflatsix
Banned
Yup, around the time JB was 16th and KK was 11, my impression was that KK was putting in lower lap times, but to be fair, almost everyone ahead of Button was faster as he was unable to move through the field in a McLaren, definetely Di Resta, Hulk, Vergne, Senna were all lapsing faster around that time
RickD
Pole Sitter
Lets pick a time when Jenson admitted he had shot his tyres to bit eh Cook..
I could quite as easily say Lewis was slower than Kartikeyan if I only bothered picking a few laps, but that would be just as wrong as your statement.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
If KK had not gone off he would have finished well ahead of Button, like I said even after JB changed his tyres he was unable to match the pace of anyone bar the new teams, he just seemed to stagnate at the back
A bit like Korea 2010, he just disappeared, as mentioned earlier he wasted his tyres by mismanaging them, this time unlike Korea there is no excuse of the wrong setup as he was going ok before crashing into the worst driver on the grid
I have never seen such a poor race from LH
Anyway I hope Brogan will post a comparison chart of JB vs KK so that we can see if my impression is correct or if Button was faster than KK generally and it was only during the lap his tyres fell off the cliff
A bit like Korea 2010, he just disappeared, as mentioned earlier he wasted his tyres by mismanaging them, this time unlike Korea there is no excuse of the wrong setup as he was going ok before crashing into the worst driver on the grid
I have never seen such a poor race from LH
Anyway I hope Brogan will post a comparison chart of JB vs KK so that we can see if my impression is correct or if Button was faster than KK generally and it was only during the lap his tyres fell off the cliff
I have only fastest laps to go on at the mo but KK clocked a 1 min 44.2 as his fastest race lap whilst Jenson clocked a 1 min 42.1
On the other hand Perez clocked a 1 min 41.0 to Hamiltons 1 min 41.5
Now I know you shouldn't go off fastest laps in the race because it could be that Button's time was a one off when he wrecked those tyres or they could have been caught in traffic etc etc - and also KK stopped 10 laps before the end so got no low fuel running time. It looks a big gap though.
I was under the impression that Kobi was slowly moving backwards during the race hence my surprise at Perez's overall pace as the 2 have never been that far apart.
On the other hand Perez clocked a 1 min 41.0 to Hamiltons 1 min 41.5
Now I know you shouldn't go off fastest laps in the race because it could be that Button's time was a one off when he wrecked those tyres or they could have been caught in traffic etc etc - and also KK stopped 10 laps before the end so got no low fuel running time. It looks a big gap though.
I was under the impression that Kobi was slowly moving backwards during the race hence my surprise at Perez's overall pace as the 2 have never been that far apart.
I think a lot can be said for their positions within the field. Perez, for example didn't have to drive defensively at any stage of the race. There is always a bit more squabbling further back in the pack and that almost inevitably effects your pace. That aside, Perez clearly outperformed Kobi on Sunday.
Whitmarsh doing his usual...witless, waffling piffle......whiffle
IMHO......He needs JB to be number one to satisfy his ego? Jenson...........
When JB went to McLaren...he said he wanted to be the first British double consecutive WDC winning for two different teams, this would be a first...who gives a
Another was winning in Australia? last year...he wanted three in a row,........... JB tussled with Massa.... MW argued that when he went on the escape route to avoid Massa, JB was in the right!!! If he had given the place back immediately etc. Meanwhile Vettel went completely off the track to complete an overtake.......if instead...they had tried to get Seb a drive thru, LH could have done better in the race. CHorner wouldn't have missed that one.
Japan....Jessica became Japanese....she had been half Japanese until that day. Button wanted to win ....Japan had suffered a major tragedy..........he had a Japanese girlfriend...............In Q3..Lewis was left unable to get his last fast lap, left in the chicane whilst Button.took a 9 second gap to the car in front. Why were Macca not giving LH info re MW & Schumi approaching him?
These are just a few of the times I have observed that JB has been helped & LH has been hindered.
Lewis usualy takes each race for what it is...apologies to those who call him & just wants to concentrate on the next race....
He has to be aware of what is happening... you have to trust your team........and it needs sorting.
Good read, for many reasons
Glad to entertain you............Good read, for many reasons
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Good points raised there F1ang, Japanese GP, would have definitely been possible that JB with his Jap links and gf, and MW with his business hat on preferring a JB win, especially when you consider the disaster that befell Japan a d the importance of Japan to an engineering firm.Glad to entertain you............
riskitall
Points Scorer
theres so many examples of lewis strategy being messed up and button benefitting from it.
theres so many examples of lewis coming out of the pits just behind jenson after a bungled or poorly timed pitstop.
whenever jensons the lead driver he pits first.whenever lewis is the lead driver jenson still pits first.
and they messed things up for lewis to make sure button won his 200th race,it was so blatant.
in 07 martin said he would have made alonso number 1,he's now trying to do that with button,but he cant just blatantly do it,so he's doing it in a sneaky way.i wont be suprised if we see some more dodgy going ons in china.
theres so many examples of lewis coming out of the pits just behind jenson after a bungled or poorly timed pitstop.
whenever jensons the lead driver he pits first.whenever lewis is the lead driver jenson still pits first.
and they messed things up for lewis to make sure button won his 200th race,it was so blatant.
in 07 martin said he would have made alonso number 1,he's now trying to do that with button,but he cant just blatantly do it,so he's doing it in a sneaky way.i wont be suprised if we see some more dodgy going ons in china.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
I can remember Jos Verstappen in the Minardi (?) running 2nd in the rain in Malaysia while he was nowhere in practice. That was an even bigger change in performance.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
I've read some of the posts and it's obvious a lot of people are angry as to why McLaren pitted Lewis so late. I am exactly the same. They made lots of errors throughout the race but leaving him out so long when slicks were 5 seconds a lap faster is just unforgivable. In those kind of situations the teams just needs to order the driver to come in. Lewis may not be as good at making calls than Jenson but he isn't stupid and if everyone else is going 5 seconds quicker and he got told that clearly then he'd come in!
What I don't understand is this thing of "we were playing it safe in-case it rained" because even if it did rain then those intermediates were practically slicks anyway by that point and so he'd of had to pit either way.
It is very frustrating that I have looked through all the BBC and Sky coverage and I haven't seen anyone make a big deal about this yet a huge amount of fans can see this was a massive blunder. I really just want a proper explanation from someone in the team as to what the hell they were thinking and why Jenson gets ordered to come in 2 laps before yet Lewis is just left out.
Sigh.
What I don't understand is this thing of "we were playing it safe in-case it rained" because even if it did rain then those intermediates were practically slicks anyway by that point and so he'd of had to pit either way.
It is very frustrating that I have looked through all the BBC and Sky coverage and I haven't seen anyone make a big deal about this yet a huge amount of fans can see this was a massive blunder. I really just want a proper explanation from someone in the team as to what the hell they were thinking and why Jenson gets ordered to come in 2 laps before yet Lewis is just left out.
Sigh.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
Even had Lewis stopped a couple of laps earlier for slicks, it would have made NO DIFFERENCE!!! He still would've come third! Almost all of the teams were playing it too safe - it was clear to see that it was dry enough for slicks about 2 laps before anyone went onto them - yet still they were playing it safe on the inters! There is NO CONSPIRACY. Move along, there's nothing to see here!
http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/7627929/A-race-to-be-proud-of
Martin Brundle said:
No mention of Hamilton but the same is noted of Perez who suffered the same bad call from his team.
If Perez lost 5 seconds on his lap and Lewis lost 10 repectively, then pitting Lewis at the right time would have gained him 15 seconds on Perez, putting him in front and 10 seconds on Alonso putting him on his gearbox. Given that Lewis was quicker than Alonso in the final stint we have to say that this was a potentially very costly call from McLaren.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
Prior to the stops, LH was 14 seconds behind Alonso.
After the stops, LH was 18.9 seconds behind Alonso.
He lost a total of 4.9 seconds to Alonso during the stops.
Hindsight is a WONDERFUL thing. It still doesn't change the fact that he would, at best, have been 14 seconds behind Alonso if they had stopped on the same lap!
riskitall
Points Scorer
this was written by someone else in a different forum,and i agree with it 100%.
Well I squarely blame mclaren for throwing away the race due to their inability to provide Hamilton with decent pitstops & strategies. I thought according to mclaren in aus..that the driver in lead has priority in pitstops? Once again they allowed Lewis to stay out too long on old tyres when everyone else changed around 2 laps before. They also bodged 3 of his stops. ALSO the ill treatment of Hamilton by the media is becoming very obvious...Had Lewis done what button & vettel did to Karthikeyan..then Lewis wouldve been investigated/punished by stewards...and the media wouldve lynched him. But vettel & button once again get away scott-free - not even investigated??!! And the attempts of vettel & button's pals in the media (commentators) quickly making up excuses for them in the knowledge that charlie whiting is listening shows how dirty the sport can be with media influence. Also how the bbc & sky f1 went to the lengths to sweep JB's collision under the carpet...damon replying to a question about Hamilton by answering about JB. Vettel's petulance showing when he was swearing at Karthikayan on the track in full view of the watching world didnt even get any condemnation from the commentators or media??!! - they just laughed it off??!! Had Lewis done any of this and they would all be calling for his blood. Im getting sick and fed up of the bias shown by sky and the beeb - I have to reach for my sick bucket every 5 mins.
Well I squarely blame mclaren for throwing away the race due to their inability to provide Hamilton with decent pitstops & strategies. I thought according to mclaren in aus..that the driver in lead has priority in pitstops? Once again they allowed Lewis to stay out too long on old tyres when everyone else changed around 2 laps before. They also bodged 3 of his stops. ALSO the ill treatment of Hamilton by the media is becoming very obvious...Had Lewis done what button & vettel did to Karthikeyan..then Lewis wouldve been investigated/punished by stewards...and the media wouldve lynched him. But vettel & button once again get away scott-free - not even investigated??!! And the attempts of vettel & button's pals in the media (commentators) quickly making up excuses for them in the knowledge that charlie whiting is listening shows how dirty the sport can be with media influence. Also how the bbc & sky f1 went to the lengths to sweep JB's collision under the carpet...damon replying to a question about Hamilton by answering about JB. Vettel's petulance showing when he was swearing at Karthikayan on the track in full view of the watching world didnt even get any condemnation from the commentators or media??!! - they just laughed it off??!! Had Lewis done any of this and they would all be calling for his blood. Im getting sick and fed up of the bias shown by sky and the beeb - I have to reach for my sick bucket every 5 mins.
Hmm. I have been decieved. Brogan suggested that Lewis lost 10 seconds due to that pitstop. I'm going to have to check for myself.
Anyway, forget HINDSIGHT. I was watching the live timing, (from my armchair, yes), and I had the FORESIGHT to know when to bring him in because Ricciardo was hitting some epic purples in every sector. HINDSIGHT is not a WONDERFUL thing. FORESIGHT is a WONDERFUL thing.
Sorry for shouting. I just wanted to continue the theme. I will go and check the numbers, though.
I didn't suggest anything.
I posted the lap chart and showed that Hamilton lost almost 10 seconds compared to Button.
All the timing information is here if you want to check: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Pages/timing.aspx
This would be the best document to check: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/mal-race-history.pdf
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