Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[F1ang-o]

I thought standard practice at Mclaren was the driver leading got first call on pit stops. Perhaps Hammy wanted to stay out longer? Here's Martin Whitmarsh's take on the race:

Whitmarsh doing his usual...witless, waffling piffle......whiffle
IMHO......He needs JB to be number one to satisfy his ego? Jenson...........
When JB went to McLaren...he said he wanted to be the first British double consecutive WDC winning for two different teams, this would be a first...who gives a
Another was winning in Australia? last year...he wanted three in a row,........... JB tussled with Massa.... MW argued that when he went on the escape route to avoid Massa, JB was in the right!!! If he had given the place back immediately etc. Meanwhile Vettel went completely off the track to complete an overtake.......if instead...they had tried to get Seb a drive thru, LH could have done better in the race. CHorner wouldn't have missed that one.
Japan....Jessica became Japanese....she had been half Japanese until that day. Button wanted to win ....Japan had suffered a major tragedy..........he had a Japanese girlfriend...............In Q3..Lewis was left unable to get his last fast lap, left in the chicane whilst Button.took a 9 second gap to the car in front. Why were Macca not giving LH info re MW & Schumi approaching him?
These are just a few of the times I have observed that JB has been helped & LH has been hindered.
Lewis usualy takes each race for what it is...apologies to those who call him & just wants to concentrate on the next race....
He has to be aware of what is happening... you have to trust your team........and it needs sorting.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Once again Lewis finds people in front of him and his head goes down - there is now way Perez and Alonso should have been pulling away from him at that rate I just don't get it.

Have you looked at the Laptime charts? I think it was less his head going down and more time lost on wrong tyres and in the pit. Toward the end he was catching Alonso although falling back from Perez

If his head dropped why would he be faster than the leader toward the end of a race that he had lost so much time through no real fault of his own. I think we need to look to Button to show the cars performance relative to Perez' car which was the only other one that beat him

So no evidence Lewis choked or his head 'dropped'

 

[Il_leone]

That is if you consider it to be a gamble. I would consider it more risky to keep your driver out on shot inters when people at the back of the pack are going 5s a lap faster on new slicks.

I'm not sure I understand where you have got the notion of gamble from. It was a straight forward no-brainer to put him on slicks, not a gamble at all.

Being at the back Button would have got up to the guys in the top 10 if he was on the right tyre and get one or two points

With Hamilton if Mclaren made the call wrong he could have lost more than 3rd place....whereas the right call might have allowed him to get closer to the front two but he was still about 10 seconds back or so but had Vettel,, Webber and Raikkonen chasing him

It was easy decision to use Button as the guinea pig for the lead driver in this case

Mclaren had to be sure that Alonso, Perez and Vettel would pit to cover them all off for Hamilton and could not really blink first

 

[Brogan]

Mclaren had to be sure that Alonso, Perez and Vettel would pit to cover them all off for Hamilton and could not really blink first

When ever HRT are lapping faster, it really is irrelevant what the drivers in front are doing.

At the worst McLaren should have pitted Hamilton one lap later than Button.
But two? Makes no sense at all.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Being at the back Button would have got up to the guys in the top 10 if he was on the right tyre and get one or two points

With Hamilton if Mclaren made the call wrong he could have lost more than 3rd place....whereas the right call might have allowed him to get closer to the front two but he was still about 10 seconds back or so but had Vettel,, Webber and Raikkonen chasing him

It was easy decision to use Button as the guinea pig for the lead driver in this case

Mclaren had to be sure that Alonso, Perez and Vettel would pit to cover them all off for Hamilton and could not really blink first

So they would have been willing to gamble a potential fight back for 1 or 2 points with their driver who had rubbish pace and was effectively out of the race than a safe bet on the driver with the good pace at the sharp end where the points differences between places is greater and are already in hand.

There was no doubt, whatsoever, that getting Hamilton onto the slicks was the right thing to do at the time. The only concern was that it might rain and, even then, those inters were no longer good for a wet track anyway.

So now you have reversed your statement to say that they took a gamble rather than avoided taking a gamble.

 

[RasputinLives]

Presumably you missed Brundle's comment about why the Ferrari was so good in those conditions?

Raspy. If you are stating that Lewis was told when to pit for tyres then at which point of the race do you think that Lewis "choked". As far as I can see, the only error Lewis made in the entire race was going a foot over his marks in the last pitstop. The only way he was going to beat the two faster cars in front of him was through good strategy which you have already explained was out of his hands.

Have you looked at the Laptime charts? I think it was less his head going down and more time lost on wrong tyres and in the pit. Toward the end he was catching Alonso although falling back from Perez

If his head dropped why would he be faster than the leader toward the end of a race that he had lost so much time through no real fault of his own. I think we need to look to Button to show the cars performance relative to Perez' car which was the only other one that beat him

So no evidence Lewis choked or his head 'dropped'

Blimey! Should have not used the word choked should I! I was trying to say the entire Mclaren team messed up a certain win this weekend.

Yes I did hear what Brundle said which is a theory but it leaves me confused. the car was good in the wet because the chassie was soft? He could be right of course but it sounds more like an observation than a fact. It still doesn't explain Perez's speed in the Sauber when Kobi couldn't live with him. Also I've been told so many times that rain is a level playing field and shows the true skill of the driver and also in previous season in mixed conditions we've never seen a car that was 1.2 seconds slower in quali suddenly become the fastest machine in the race so I find it hard to fathom that this time round it can all be explained by the rubber and the car. I think Lewis was outdriven(as was everyone else so not a personel insult) and yes I do think he let his head drop when he lost the lead despite what the lap times said. Once again he was subdued on the podium and I think he does get down when things don't go his way.

I am not way saying "oh my god Lewis Hamitlon was awful!" but it was said he had a brilliant drive. To me he had an average drive and could do a lot better.

My original point was that this race was there for the taking for Mclaren and they and their drivers managed to combine together to get a 3rd and a 14th - thats why I used the word choked.

 

[Brogan]

Yes I did hear what Brundle said which is a theory but it leaves me confused. the car was good in the wet because the chassie was soft?

No.

The car is good in the wet as under normal conditions it overheats the rear tyres.
Exactly what you want in cool conditions to maintain pressures.

 

[RasputinLives]

No.

The car is good in the wet as under normal conditions it overheats the rear tyres.
Exactly what you want in cool conditions to maintain pressures.

What about the Sauber? the car that keeps tyres lasting longer than most others in normal conditions. Why was that so quick? You can see why I'm confused.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

My original point was that this race was there for the taking for Mclaren and they and their drivers managed to combine together to get a 3rd and a 14th - thats why I used the word choked.

But you said McLaren, Lewis and Jenson choked. That names three parties as entities and infers that you think they all individually choked as entities. Essentially you could have said Jenson choked, Lewis choked and McLaren choked. Obviously I think people have taken issue with the statement that Lewis choked where in reality he did no such thing.

 

[RasputinLives]

But you said McLaren, Lewis and Jenson choked. That names three parties as entities and infers that you think they all individually choked as entities. Essentially you could have said Jenson choked, Lewis choked and McLaren choked. Obviously I think people have taken issue with the statement that Lewis choked where in reality he did no such thing.

None of them performed to the level they are capable of this weekend and thus threw away a victory - that is what I mean by choked. It was all there for the taking and they didn't take it. Hence they choked.

I could edit and put effed up if anyone would feel better about it.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

It's always been fashionable to say Hamilton;
Is a choker
Wrecks his tyres
Is arrogant
Can't think
Makes more mistakes than the others

 

[RasputinLives]

It's always been fashionable to say Hamilton;
Is a choker
Wrecks his tyres
Is arrogant
Can't think
Makes more mistakes than the others

Please note I said Mclaren, Jenson and Lewis ALL choked before this becomes about being anti-Lewis

I don't follow fashion - you should see my mobile phone and if someone says someone is sick then I assume they're tucked up in bed - I just state what I think.

 

[Brogan]

I'm not a fan of the word "choked".
It implies someone caved under pressure.

From what I saw, Button drove into the back of someone which destroyed his race. An error, but hardly indicative of choking.

As for Hamilton, other than slightly overshooting his box, all of his issues were down to changing tyres too late.
Something McLaren seem to be routinely guilty of.

So again, I fail to see how that can be attributed to "choking".

 

[ExtremeNinja]

What about the Sauber? the car that keeps tyres lasting longer than most others in normal conditions. Why was that so quick? You can see why I'm confused.

I think this is more down to Sergio's driving style and how he like to set the car up. His tyre management and usage seems to be an exception to the norm when compared to pretty much everyone else on the grid.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

None of them performed to the level they are capable of this weekend and thus threw away a victory - that is what I mean by choked. It was all there for the taking and they didn't take it. Hence they choked.

I could edit and put effed up if anyone would feel better about it.

Other than overshooting his pitbox, where do you think Lewis effed up? His drive was otherwise flawless given the circumstances he had to work with. If you are referring to the pitbox incident, then I agree with you. Silly mistake, although easily done. (however, not ultimately costly).

 

[RasputinLives]

I think this is more down to Sergio's driving style and how he like to set the car up. His tyre management and usage seems to be an exception to the norm when compared to pretty much everyone else on the grid.

So one is down to the chassie and the other is down to driving style and Lewis is slower because of his tyres? this is why I'm confused. To me Lewis wasn't driving to the form we know he can yesterday because we know he's capable of out performing the car and keeping up with those guys hence why I don't think you can describe him as having a brilliant drive. I think he had an average drive. Which if you think about it is praise - because if an average drive still takes you to 3rd then its got to be a compliment.

I'm not a fan of the word "choked".
It implies someone caved under pressure.

To me choked is when there is a clear winning oppotunity that a team and individual conspire to mess up and not take - hence me using it but I understand people are viewing it differently to me.

How about I say they blew it?

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Please note I said Mclaren, Jenson and Lewis ALL choked before this becomes about being anti-Lewis

But your argument for saying LH choked is that his head dropped and he could have done better

Why was he still driving faster than the leader towards the end? and the only other who beat him had by far the better car in those conditions, we can confirm this by looking at JBs times in the other McLaren, and he is the expert at changeable conditions. As was mentioned JB had an error and then couldn't make his tyres work, McLaren maybe choked or maybe were just useless

 

[ExtremeNinja]

So one is down to the chassie and the other is down to driving style and Lewis is slower because of his tyres? this is why I'm confused.

There are many variables in Formula 1. It's a complicated sport. I think this why so many people who are cassual fans don't understand it and switch over the EastEnders omnibus.

(Obviously you are not a casual fan though, so don't take that the wrong way)

How about I say they blew it?

Collectively, or as individuals? Collectively, McLaren could have had a better result today. Individually, Jenso could have done a lot better than he did. Individually, Lewis ran a near perfect race given the strategies and information that he was presented with.

 

[Brogan]

One thing which hasn't been mentioned is car set-up.

How do we know Ferrari and Sauber weren't leaning towards a wet(ish) set-up?

There are way too many factors involved to say that McLaren deserved to win yesterday.

 

[RasputinLives]

Lewis ran a near perfect race given the strategies and information that he was presented with.

Got to disagree - the Lewis Hamilton I know is faster and better than that and I think he'd be the first to agree