Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[Cookinflatsix]

And right there is the whole reason for not bothering with this thread. I wouldn't usually bother replying to one of your posts Cook, but you seem to be getting so wound up, I thought it might be fun, especially if you ever reaslise Lewis isn't a demi-god (I want to see your breakdown when you do realise, that should be fun).

Trying to win an argument on the internet is like being 40st and wondering why you don't have a girlfriend..

It's not the winning, it's the taking part

We don't sit around waiting for old age, we carry on with life by living it

Ofcourse some of us just watch from the sidelines and snipe and spoil from time to time as they are not confident of being well equipped to participate

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

So why isn't there an exhaustive "Nico Rosberg vs Michael Schumacher thread"? Or "Vettel vs Webber" one to dissect every single facet, nuance and widget that may have contributed to one driver finishing ahead of the other? Or even get into trawling through their family history to find reasons why one won, and one didn't?

It's become pathetic that the Hamiltonistas refuse to accept that on occasion He is Less Than Perfect, and therefore must find every possible excuse for him failing to be so.

The reason that we never saw any of this venom projected at Heikki Kovalainen was because he was never perceived as a threat.

Agree absolutely. But what also has to be observed (I feel) is that there are other posters than these 'Hamiltonistas' who are equally at fault for perpetuating these seemingly neverending arguments. I've said it before and i'll say it again; there are just as many 'Hamilton isn't the best because my driver is better than him etc etc' as there are the so-called pro-Hamilton posts. They're just not so, well, fanatical. They are/can be as much at fault for derailing threads though as well as being equally as vociferous and boring.

 

[RickD]

Ofcourse some of us just watch from the sidelines and snipe and spoil from time to time as they are not confident of being well equipped to participate

You really need to watch that as it can leave you bitter and twisted..

 

[F1ang-o]

Just as a point in question, have McLaren ever suffered from having a level playing field? Have they not had a first driver who got resentful and lost his head, eventually getting the team chucked out of the Constructors' Championship while their two drivers split their points equally thus allowing a driver in an inferior Ferrari to nick the Championship by a single point?

It seems that their recent history suggests that a level playing field may not be the best move.

He may have lost them the CC, but I don't think he was soley to blame fo LH not getting 2007 WDC.
The team left LH out, when he needed to come in for tyres, ending his race in the gravel pit in China.
A gearbox clitch in Brazil...Martin Whitmarsh said he had never seen the likes of it before, or likely to again............

BUT...When it suits.... we are told.....McLaren have always had that policy....oh, sorry that's about keeping LH out...when HE needs tyres.

 

[Il_leone]

link says

"Button broke up with childhood sweetheart Kimberley Keay shortly after he landed a seat for F1 team Williams in 2000. It was a bitter ending to a fairytale eight-year romance though: the barmaid reportedly claimed she had a secret abortion in a bid to save their relationship."

so a half truth again.

and on the Whitmarsh thing. I shall take your word as good but once again a half truth when its used to show that Whitmarsh dislikes Lewis.

I do remember the ex girlfriend situation when Button landed in F1 but he is not the first person to do it or the last . Be honest any relationship takes two people in harmony.

I remember Senna ditched his fiance/wife before he got into F1 .

I am sure Jenson's ex is in a much happier place without him after all these years she can;t be sulking still

 

[Road of Bones]

Agree absolutely. But what also has to be observed (I feel) is that there are other posters than these 'Hamiltonistas' who are equally at fault for perpetuating these seemingly neverending arguments. I've said it before and i'll say it again; there are just as many 'Hamilton isn't the best because my driver is better than him etc etc' as there are the so-called pro-Hamilton posts. They're just not so, well, fanatical. They are/can be as much at fault for derailing threads though as well as being equally as vociferous and boring.

Fair point SRF, but I'd argue that there aren't quite as many para-Hamiltonistas...

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Let me see if I can help things along. I have been searching the internet for some facts. The MysticNinja has discovered that both drivers are Capricorn. Hmm, inconclusive. Some more investigation required. OK, Lewis was born in the Chinese year of the rat and Jenson was born in the Chinese year of the sheep. Now we're talking. There's some facts and if that doesn't explain everything then you need to read up on your astrology and Chinese symbolism.

 

[Il_leone]

He may have lost them the CC, but I don't think he was soley to blame fo LH not getting 2007 WDC.
The team left LH out, when he needed to come in for tyres, ending his race in the gravel pit in China.
A gearbox clitch in Brazil...Martin Whitmarsh said he had never seen the likes of it before, or likely to again............

BUT...When it suits.... we are told.....McLaren have always had that policy....oh, sorry that's about keeping LH out...when HE needs tyres.

Perhaps you should ask Ron Dennis who was in charge of the Mclaren team 2007 and 2008 especially over the tyre debacle in China 2007.

Ron Dennis allowed his personal issues with Alonso, Todt and Mosley cloud his judgment over the race situation. Had he called Lewis in to fit new tyres he probably would have finished 2nd and eliminated Raikkonen from the tyre.

Ron wanted to win the race to stick two fingers at the above nemesis ..it was a ridiculous situation to lose the title

Ron Dennis cost Lewis Hamilton the 2007 title because of his political battles

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I never saw Heikki pull any sneaky moves...so no comments?
When Schumi was in his Heyday...plenty was said.

Hungary 2007 quali - Hamilton let Alonso through.... so Alonso counters blocking him in quali need I say more

Also Hamilton never likes to be told slow down if he is in a position to win races

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

Didn't Hamilton ditch his girlfriend shortly after entering F1? *runs and hides*

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Can I just extend a olive branch to one and all here.
Snip/
trying to justify the wrongs with analysis and theories and rubbishing their opponent by suggesting they've always been about "giving it all that, playing the fame and getting the chicks" isn't going to do yourself any favours. Just think how you'd react if someone said that about your fave driver?

At the end of the day you're favourite driver is only as good as his opposition anyways.

Olive branch accepted, it has always been fun arguing with you as you always come back, I suspect we could swap sides and continue arguing the others point

tbf, my reference to Buttons self admitted wrong start was to illustrate that he came good much later and that has brought him into Hamiltons path despite the karting legend. I don't hate him at all, I supported him when he was younger, just the F1 first years brought disappointment and despair to many looking to follow the same path (not me)

 

[Viscount]

I wrote an OP the other day, and I don't do this very often, which attempted to offer a theory on the nuances of how the two drivers work their tyres. It lasted a day before it was hi-jacked and then had to be shut down. I can't begin to tell you how much that pissed me off.

Back to their actual racing, on the McLaren twitter page today it was asked, "Is it a challenge with tyre management when you have 2 drivers who use the tyres completely differently?"

To which McLaren replied, "That's a popular misconception: Jenson and Lewis may drive differently, but derive their speed from the car and tyres in much the same way."

I think their different tyre wear may come down to the differences in their setups.

 

[racecub]

Didn't Hamilton ditch his girlfriend shortly after entering F1? *runs and hides*

Not when she was pregnant *runs to join you*

 

[racecub]

Back to their actual racing, on the McLaren twitter page today it was asked, "Is it a challenge with tyre management when you have 2 drivers who use the tyres completely differently?"

To which McLaren replied, "That's a popular misconception: Jenson and Lewis may drive differently, but derive their speed from the car and tyres in much the same way."

I think their different tyre wear may come down to the differences in their setups.

I think the problem for McLaren is not how the drivers use the tyres but how they manage the pitstops to best suit BOTH drivers.And Im not getting at Mclaren here.Lewis got screwed by having to stay out on the first pitstop last week but McLaren tried to be fair on the second one...and were very good. Albeit in Hindsight yet again Hamilton was the loser. If tyre wear is as high as it looks and weather plays its part, expect the tyre people to be very busy indeed.

 

[RasputinLives]

Not when she was pregnant *runs to join you*

I think you missed out the word illegedly

 

[RasputinLives]

I think the problem for McLaren is not how the drivers use the tyres but how they manage the pitstops to best suit BOTH drivers.And Im not getting at Mclaren here.Lewis got screwed by having to stay out on the first pitstop last week but McLaren tried to be fair on the second one...and were very good. Albeit in Hindsight yet again Hamilton was the loser. If tyre wear is as high as it looks and weather plays its part, expect the tyre people to be very busy indeed.

I think Mclaren's main problem is running two competitve drivers as they are the only team doing it and until they get a pit garage each stuff like that is always going to hamper them. Heaven forbid they both lose a nose cone or something on the same lap and one of them has to queue up! I think I might not log in for a week! lol.

Red Bull tried to run 2 competitive drivers in 2010 and they ended up with far worse show downs than Mclaren have with Ham/But (although Alo/Ham was a bit worse!). Lets remember they are in a unique position here usually one team mate is the contender and the other is back up. They've both been in serious contention for the title all the way to the finish for 2 years now and although its becoming more common (Vet/Web in 2010, But/Bar 2009, Alo/Ham in 2007). Before 2007 the last time 2 team mates were the title contenders was 1996 with Hill and Villenurve and before that it was 89 with Prost and Senna.

Their is a reason the big names tend to drive in seperate teams and the logistics of pitstops is one of them.

 

[Viscount]

I think the problem for McLaren is not how the drivers use the tyres but how they manage the pitstops to best suit BOTH drivers.And Im not getting at Mclaren here.Lewis got screwed by having to stay out on the first pitstop last week but McLaren tried to be fair on the second one...and were very good. Albeit in Hindsight yet again Hamilton was the loser. If tyre wear is as high as it looks and weather plays its part, expect the tyre people to be very busy indeed.

I agree their strategy calls may affect one driver worse than the other, but with Australia for example, I think allowing the driver in front to have first choice as to which lap they pit is the fairest strategy. Without that safety car McLaren would likely have finished in a 1-2 which is their best possible result. It was unfortunate for Lewis but I don't see a better way McLaren could have handled it, these are the only other options I think they had:
1. If Hamilton had pitted on lap 16, which was the optimum lap, that would be hugely unfair on Button who got into the lead and built a gap. Button would then have a slow in lap due to worn tyres and probably be undercut by Lewis who's already out on fresh tyres and so Button loses the lead purely because of pit stops which would be unfair.
2. They let Button the lead driver pit at the optimum time on lap 16 but bring Lewis in a lap early on lap 15. Once again this would be unfair to Button as Lewis might undercut him, but then Lewis would also have to pit earlier at the next pit stop which would leave him vulnerable to be overtaken in the last few laps due to being on the most worn tyres.

 

[Bill Boddy]

I watched itOk I guess I dont qualify as your impartial poster....

No, but I think that you should have included the information that Button spent much of FP1 in the pits with an oil leak and spent some of FP2 having a minor brake problem fixed. After all he is the second McLaren driver.

Same old story as last season, it's Button who gets the broken-down old car. If you ask me Whitmarsh has got it in for him.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Hungary 2007, Hamilton refused to be a perfectly legal (changing driver positions was illegal during a race) order to allow Alonso past so that McLaren could get the number of laps in Q3 correct for their strategy and fuel loading. Is that or is it not sneaky of Hamilton?

There were races last year where Button came in before Hamilton despite Hamilton being the leading McLaren driver. They were all under changeable weather conditions and did not interfere with Hamilton in any way.

 

[riskitall]

No, but I think that you should have included the information that Button spent much of FP1 in the pits with an oil leak and spent some of FP2 having a minor brake problem fixed. After all he is the second McLaren driver.

Same old story as last season, it's Button who gets the broken-down old car. If you ask me Whitmarsh has got it in for him.

youre obviously being sarcastic,but last season it was lewis who had problems with his car alot of the time.
punctures,unable to refuel his car,he had a problem with his car i think it was before the race in monaco.they only just fixed it in time.then theres the gear box failure.and there was probably other things too.
at the end of the day if the lead driver pits first,then keep it that way,dont make exeptions which they have done for button in the past.

 

[riskitall]

Hungary 2007, Hamilton refused to be a perfectly legal (changing driver positions was illegal during a race) order to allow Alonso past so that McLaren could get the number of laps in Q3 correct for their strategy and fuel loading. Is that or is it not sneaky of Hamilton?

There were races last year where Button came in before Hamilton despite Hamilton being the leading McLaren driver. They were all under changeable weather conditions and did not interfere with Hamilton in any way.

but lewis could have pitted in aus without taking buttons lead,but he still had to wait,so your argument doesnt hold up.