Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton
- Thread starter Brogan
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Bringing Lewis in lap before Jenson would have been the least risky and most sensible thing to do. They were way too close for a double shuffle in the first stop. Lewis would have ended up queueing.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
Herein lies the problem with tyres that "go off the cliff".
If they are going to go off the cliff, there's often no warning! As such, only hindsight will be able to tell you what lap you need to stop on! It wouldn't necessarily have been a good plan stopping Hamilton on lap 15, if his tyres were going to last for much longer - they weren't to know that lap 16 was going to be the watershed lap! As such, you always need to choose one driver or other to pit first once you realise that the tyres are going to go off.
If they are going to go off the cliff, there's often no warning! As such, only hindsight will be able to tell you what lap you need to stop on! It wouldn't necessarily have been a good plan stopping Hamilton on lap 15, if his tyres were going to last for much longer - they weren't to know that lap 16 was going to be the watershed lap! As such, you always need to choose one driver or other to pit first once you realise that the tyres are going to go off.
I would argue that Hamilton still would have finished second at worst.
Would certainly have been an unnecessary risk, though. Imagine if Jenson's wheel-nut got stuck. That would have killed both their races. OK, they did it later on, so no difference, apart from some extra breathing room, but it's a gamble that could backfire enormously.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
I've just flicked through the posts in this thread and want to say a couple of things. Most people will know im primarily a Hamilton supporter, but also support McLaren as a team and being patriotic I also therefore support Button and am happy for him to win if Hamilton doesn't. When Button came to McLaren I really did not rate him and I think many were the same but his performance has been quite startling and he seems to be getting stronger and stronger. Without a doubt, the current tyres suit him more and suit Hamilton less, but I don't think we can relate all their relevant positives and negatives to that alone. In-fact, I think that is just a minor aspect and it is unfair to in essence belittle Button's performance and make out it's just because he can look after his tyres better.
I'm going to look at two different areas between the both of them. The first is revolved around personality and mindset and the 2nd more related to skill out on the track, but which is also heavily influenced by mindset.
So the first thing I want to talk about is how Lewis and Jenson both respectively talk about the team in general to media for example. I notice that Hamilton on a regular basis talks about the team winning and either him or Jenson winning. Obviously he wants to win himself, but he also refers to Jenson a lot, such as at the beginning of the season he'll say "hopefully one of me or Jenson will win" for example. Deep down he'd hate Jenson to win the WDC with him having the same equipment, but I think he says this because he has more underlying confidence in his speed and ability and so this is really just PR talk. Jenson on the other hand, seems to refer to Lewis much less when talking about the team and it is quite rare to hear him mention Lewis in the context of saying "hopefully one of us will win". I think this can be perceived the wrong way and even I've perceived it in the wrong way at times. Good example was back at Brazil in 2010, where Button said he was racing for himself. I think the main reason for Button acting like this is that there has been so much press talk about Lewis being faster and it being Lewis' team and even now whenever he beats Lewis there is always usually some saying that it was because Lewis underperformed rather than him performing. I think all these things make Jenson more defensive and therefore he probably feels inside like he has more to prove and comes accross a little more touchy about the subject.
In short, I can understand both approaches completely and do not think there's really anything to criticise in either. What does annoy me however is that everything Hamilton seems to do or say in front of the cameras always gets blown out of proportion and often looked at unfairly. For example, if the roles would have been reversed back in Brazil 2010 and Hamilton would have said what Button said then I honestly think there would have been much more press about it. Whereas, with Button saying it, it was overlooked or just accepted, because it's natural he was a little dissapointed not to be in the fight still himself.
More recently, at the last race in Australia, I honestly couldn't and can't believe the amount of negativity I've heard towards how Hamilton supposedly didn't seem happy on the podium. I mean c'mon, he was on pole and he ended up finishing 3rd behind his team mate when he was driving the fastest car. Plus he unluckily lost 2nd place due to the safety car. It is obvious he is not going to be happy and so why should he stand on the podium with a fake smile? I could understand cricism if he'd been rude or unsporting to Jenson, but the first thing he did was congratulate him and he praised JB's performance an awful lot post-race. In other words, he gets criticised hugely for being dissapointed and showing it. As Hamilton said himself: "I don't see why I should have to disguise if im dissapointed." We're on about some of the most prestigeous and well-known athletes in the world who are ultra competative - do we want them to be PR robots and show no emotion?
Every single day there's a new story in the press about Lewis and more times than not they're negative or questioning his ability or his mind-set. It is no wonder he now doesn't seem to enjoy giving interviews to the press - I know I wouldn't in his position. Think of any other driver and can you think they get anywhere near the amount of negativity and pressure placed upon them by the press, often for trivial things, which should be his own business, to a large extent. I know he doesn't always help himself and he is a controversial character, but I think it would be great if everyone just laid off him a little and let him get on with driving the car. He is going to have bad weekends and good ones, but when it's a bad one there doesn't suddenly need to be 100 stories written questioning whether it was his "LA life style" that made him lose the race - it's just a bit of a farce to be honest.
Anyway, the other point I just wanted to quickly pick up on was more to do with actual driving on the track rather than all the media and personality stuff. I've seen a fair amount of stuff in this thread about JB getting closer to Lewis in qualfiying. Without a doubt, JB has improved his qualifying performance but I think I've noticed something interesting. Well for a start, at several races last year Lewis didn't improve his Q3 time during his 2nd run, when usually he'd have less fuel and go quicker. Sometimes this was him making a mistake and sometimes it was for other reasons. So for example, at Hungary, he looked on for pole and didn't improve on his 2nd lap. At Singapore, he didn't get a 2nd run in Q3 due to a refueling problem. At Suzuka, he ran out of time and didn't make it across the line. Most of these occasions he has held a fair advantage over Jenson from his first run but then not capatilzed on his 2nd run. The more I think about it, the more it becomes apparent that in general, I don't know the percentage, but I think it'd be actually very high for the amount of times Lewis' best lap is done during his 1st run in Q3. He rarely seems to improve during his 2nd run. Now I think this is for 2 reasons. Firstly, because he does such a good lap during his 1st run that he pushes over the limit during his 2nd. But I think the main reason is he does seem to feel the pressure more than some other drivers, such as Vettel. I think he performs much better and more naturally during Q2 and first run of Q3 and then when it comes down to the 2nd run of Q3, he suddenly realises he can get pole or whatever and then he doesn't put it together. You would also have to say he seemed to feel pressure a lot during all of the years he has been fighting for the championship, towards the end of that season.
If we then look at JB's performance. Well Button generally seems to be a little behind Hamilton all weekend then at the last minute in Q3 he pulls out a lap that is almost bang on that of Hamilton's. I think this is for several reasons also. Firstly, Jenson takes longer to get the car setup so that he can produce that lap and generally gets to his optimal lap by the end of Q3. But another reason I think is because Jenson tends to get the best out of that 2nd run in Q3 when the car is lighter and the track is at its best. I think the reason why he can do this is because he is not expected to beat Lewis in qualifying and I don't think he feels the pressure to do so and as he is usually a little off from the 1st runs in Q3 he can almost just go out there and give it his all and he usually pulls off a very good lap.
Interesting stuff I think - but no real criticisms aimed at either driver! They do however combine to form a fascinating case study of both skill and personality.
I'm going to look at two different areas between the both of them. The first is revolved around personality and mindset and the 2nd more related to skill out on the track, but which is also heavily influenced by mindset.
So the first thing I want to talk about is how Lewis and Jenson both respectively talk about the team in general to media for example. I notice that Hamilton on a regular basis talks about the team winning and either him or Jenson winning. Obviously he wants to win himself, but he also refers to Jenson a lot, such as at the beginning of the season he'll say "hopefully one of me or Jenson will win" for example. Deep down he'd hate Jenson to win the WDC with him having the same equipment, but I think he says this because he has more underlying confidence in his speed and ability and so this is really just PR talk. Jenson on the other hand, seems to refer to Lewis much less when talking about the team and it is quite rare to hear him mention Lewis in the context of saying "hopefully one of us will win". I think this can be perceived the wrong way and even I've perceived it in the wrong way at times. Good example was back at Brazil in 2010, where Button said he was racing for himself. I think the main reason for Button acting like this is that there has been so much press talk about Lewis being faster and it being Lewis' team and even now whenever he beats Lewis there is always usually some saying that it was because Lewis underperformed rather than him performing. I think all these things make Jenson more defensive and therefore he probably feels inside like he has more to prove and comes accross a little more touchy about the subject.
In short, I can understand both approaches completely and do not think there's really anything to criticise in either. What does annoy me however is that everything Hamilton seems to do or say in front of the cameras always gets blown out of proportion and often looked at unfairly. For example, if the roles would have been reversed back in Brazil 2010 and Hamilton would have said what Button said then I honestly think there would have been much more press about it. Whereas, with Button saying it, it was overlooked or just accepted, because it's natural he was a little dissapointed not to be in the fight still himself.
More recently, at the last race in Australia, I honestly couldn't and can't believe the amount of negativity I've heard towards how Hamilton supposedly didn't seem happy on the podium. I mean c'mon, he was on pole and he ended up finishing 3rd behind his team mate when he was driving the fastest car. Plus he unluckily lost 2nd place due to the safety car. It is obvious he is not going to be happy and so why should he stand on the podium with a fake smile? I could understand cricism if he'd been rude or unsporting to Jenson, but the first thing he did was congratulate him and he praised JB's performance an awful lot post-race. In other words, he gets criticised hugely for being dissapointed and showing it. As Hamilton said himself: "I don't see why I should have to disguise if im dissapointed." We're on about some of the most prestigeous and well-known athletes in the world who are ultra competative - do we want them to be PR robots and show no emotion?
Every single day there's a new story in the press about Lewis and more times than not they're negative or questioning his ability or his mind-set. It is no wonder he now doesn't seem to enjoy giving interviews to the press - I know I wouldn't in his position. Think of any other driver and can you think they get anywhere near the amount of negativity and pressure placed upon them by the press, often for trivial things, which should be his own business, to a large extent. I know he doesn't always help himself and he is a controversial character, but I think it would be great if everyone just laid off him a little and let him get on with driving the car. He is going to have bad weekends and good ones, but when it's a bad one there doesn't suddenly need to be 100 stories written questioning whether it was his "LA life style" that made him lose the race - it's just a bit of a farce to be honest.
Anyway, the other point I just wanted to quickly pick up on was more to do with actual driving on the track rather than all the media and personality stuff. I've seen a fair amount of stuff in this thread about JB getting closer to Lewis in qualfiying. Without a doubt, JB has improved his qualifying performance but I think I've noticed something interesting. Well for a start, at several races last year Lewis didn't improve his Q3 time during his 2nd run, when usually he'd have less fuel and go quicker. Sometimes this was him making a mistake and sometimes it was for other reasons. So for example, at Hungary, he looked on for pole and didn't improve on his 2nd lap. At Singapore, he didn't get a 2nd run in Q3 due to a refueling problem. At Suzuka, he ran out of time and didn't make it across the line. Most of these occasions he has held a fair advantage over Jenson from his first run but then not capatilzed on his 2nd run. The more I think about it, the more it becomes apparent that in general, I don't know the percentage, but I think it'd be actually very high for the amount of times Lewis' best lap is done during his 1st run in Q3. He rarely seems to improve during his 2nd run. Now I think this is for 2 reasons. Firstly, because he does such a good lap during his 1st run that he pushes over the limit during his 2nd. But I think the main reason is he does seem to feel the pressure more than some other drivers, such as Vettel. I think he performs much better and more naturally during Q2 and first run of Q3 and then when it comes down to the 2nd run of Q3, he suddenly realises he can get pole or whatever and then he doesn't put it together. You would also have to say he seemed to feel pressure a lot during all of the years he has been fighting for the championship, towards the end of that season.
If we then look at JB's performance. Well Button generally seems to be a little behind Hamilton all weekend then at the last minute in Q3 he pulls out a lap that is almost bang on that of Hamilton's. I think this is for several reasons also. Firstly, Jenson takes longer to get the car setup so that he can produce that lap and generally gets to his optimal lap by the end of Q3. But another reason I think is because Jenson tends to get the best out of that 2nd run in Q3 when the car is lighter and the track is at its best. I think the reason why he can do this is because he is not expected to beat Lewis in qualifying and I don't think he feels the pressure to do so and as he is usually a little off from the 1st runs in Q3 he can almost just go out there and give it his all and he usually pulls off a very good lap.
Interesting stuff I think - but no real criticisms aimed at either driver! They do however combine to form a fascinating case study of both skill and personality.
The drivers usually go out on low fuel on their first Q3 run, then when they get back to the pits more fuel is put in. You can sometimes see that this has happened, the clue is that the car comes out of the garage, the only place where fuel can be added or removed.
In Oz Hamilton said that he tried braking ten yards later into turn one on this second run ; the result was that he overdid it, finishing up with a time in sector one that made it not worth completing the lap.
Last season Hamilton was very much under pressure from Vettel, who would be last out and put in a storming lap. So Hamilton would put in a banker that would get him second on the grid, followed by another lap where he tried to get that extra speed to beat Vettel. This seems to me to be a sensible approach.
There were also races where it was better to be second on the grid with an extra set of new "option" tyres rather than pole position with no new tyres.
In Oz Hamilton said that he tried braking ten yards later into turn one on this second run ; the result was that he overdid it, finishing up with a time in sector one that made it not worth completing the lap.
Last season Hamilton was very much under pressure from Vettel, who would be last out and put in a storming lap. So Hamilton would put in a banker that would get him second on the grid, followed by another lap where he tried to get that extra speed to beat Vettel. This seems to me to be a sensible approach.
There were also races where it was better to be second on the grid with an extra set of new "option" tyres rather than pole position with no new tyres.
Everyone will have their personal opinion as to who is better out of the two them, but I think we can all agree that they're both very fast drivers. As McLaren appear to have a car that will be a championship contender it'll be even more competitive between the two of them this season, so do people think that their amicable relationship will last throughout the season?
I can't see it going Senna/Prost this year.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
Confirming the theory that Lewis gets his first lap in Q3 to try something even more adventurous during his 2nd:-
LH today after qualifying in Sepang:- "You want to do a lap whenever you can but I want to make sure I get that first lap, nail that one and have chance to do something crazy on the next lap. That's generally what I want do which is why I generally bail out of my second lap."
LH today after qualifying in Sepang:- "You want to do a lap whenever you can but I want to make sure I get that first lap, nail that one and have chance to do something crazy on the next lap. That's generally what I want do which is why I generally bail out of my second lap."
Cookinflatsix
Banned
So if he played it safe second time round he would probably cut the time by a modest and not crazy half second or so
Blistering pace
Blistering pace
J
johnnoble1990
Guest
Do we know if he was going quicker? I've always enjoyed Lewis aggressive driving. I have to admit though, I think he'd be better just driving the same and he'd probably improve the time instinctively. It is rare for him to beat his 1st time.
J
johnnoble1990
Guest
I agree with this though. I think when you are the chaser, you need to try something special to make up the gap, but while Lewis is already controlling pole, I think he'd be better off just doing what he did the lap before, but better.
I wouldn't read too much into the pole position battle.
Button has never been known for poles, and in fact only has 7 for his whole career, with his last one coming 52 races ago at Monaco in 2009.
In fact, 4 of the 7 were in the first 6 races in 2009 when he had a significant car advantage and his team mate was struggling with the wrong brake pads.
Button has never been known for poles, and in fact only has 7 for his whole career, with his last one coming 52 races ago at Monaco in 2009.
In fact, 4 of the 7 were in the first 6 races in 2009 when he had a significant car advantage and his team mate was struggling with the wrong brake pads.
Conversely Hamilton has 21 pole positions (counting this weekend) and yet only 17 victories (not counting this weekend).
2012 tyre management score, post Malaysian GP:
Hamilton 1 - 0 Button
Hamilton 1 - 0 Button
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