Who said these things? You?
Vettel's next team mate SPECULATIONOMETER
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Josh
Champion Elect
Il_leone
I didn't ask if you thought he was the greatest of all time, I asked if you thought he was a great.
And why does Vettel have to prove that? Why?
You think Alonso is a great, when did he beat a world champion teammate? Unless you count Massa who was champion for about 20 seconds he has never beaten one.
I didn't ask if you thought he was the greatest of all time, I asked if you thought he was a great.
And why does Vettel have to prove that? Why?
You think Alonso is a great, when did he beat a world champion teammate? Unless you count Massa who was champion for about 20 seconds he has never beaten one.
Il_leone,
Glad to see you acknowledge that Schuey never drove a Newey-designed car and, in fact, won all of his titles by scoring more points than any drivers that WERE in Newey cars. That pretty much makes nonsense of your inference that Newey is God and designs unbeatable cars that anyone could win in.
Glad to see you acknowledge that Schuey never drove a Newey-designed car and, in fact, won all of his titles by scoring more points than any drivers that WERE in Newey cars. That pretty much makes nonsense of your inference that Newey is God and designs unbeatable cars that anyone could win in.
@Josh
Doesn't make you right. just stubborn
Ok, so if the measure is world champion team mates, Jenson is a greater driver than Michael Schumacher and Alonso, as is Lewis, as is Nico.
No one else gets a mention (have I forgotten anyone?)
I don't think that there is any need to introduce arbitrary measures to justify your opinion, just come out and say that you don't rate/like Vettel, it is far more honest to do so than to keep coming up with various criteria that you do not think he fulfils.
He has more WDC than anyone else on the grid at the moment. The names ranked above him with WDC's are a who's who of F1, likewise, many of the names below him on the list are considered greats.
Anyway, I think I have made it obvious what I think. I think that whoever goes up against him, and I mean whoever will be facing a massive challenge.
To get back on track, who do we think that will be?
No one else gets a mention (have I forgotten anyone?)
I don't think that there is any need to introduce arbitrary measures to justify your opinion, just come out and say that you don't rate/like Vettel, it is far more honest to do so than to keep coming up with various criteria that you do not think he fulfils.
He has more WDC than anyone else on the grid at the moment. The names ranked above him with WDC's are a who's who of F1, likewise, many of the names below him on the list are considered greats.
Anyway, I think I have made it obvious what I think. I think that whoever goes up against him, and I mean whoever will be facing a massive challenge.
To get back on track, who do we think that will be?
Susie Wolff
Now I'm a bit of a JEV fan so maybe you guys can tell me why he's not being considered for the Red Bull drive despite:
Being 9-9 on head to head race results with Ricciardo
Scoring more points than Ricciardo last year and being ahead of him this year
Scoring Toro Rosso's best post Vettel result on merit
Being French and backed by Renault his whole career.
Yet no one considers him an option in the media or public. All the talks about Ricciardo. Even on here when polling who would be the next Red Bull driver Ricciardo got 14 votes and JEV got 1. Even Felix Da Coata got more votes than him.
Am I missing something?
Being 9-9 on head to head race results with Ricciardo
Scoring more points than Ricciardo last year and being ahead of him this year
Scoring Toro Rosso's best post Vettel result on merit
Being French and backed by Renault his whole career.
Yet no one considers him an option in the media or public. All the talks about Ricciardo. Even on here when polling who would be the next Red Bull driver Ricciardo got 14 votes and JEV got 1. Even Felix Da Coata got more votes than him.
Am I missing something?
Oh and by the way he's ahead in the championship despite having 4 mechanical retirements to Ricciardo's 1 this year!
It reminds me of Buemi and Alguersuari.
Buemi was better qualifier, and was more consistent, while Alguersuari due to getting dropped out of Q1 would have the tyre advantage at some tracks, and therefore would finish quiet high in one or two races.
Buemi is Ricciardo, and Alguersuari is basically Jean-Eric Vergne.
Why are they going after Ricciardo? Consistency and qualifying I presume, add to that, the next bach of Toro Rosso drivers don't look any special, so there's pressure to promote one of them into Red Bull, as only 1 driver getting into the top team out of 9 (including the current two) would be considered a big failure in their driver programme.
Ricciardo looks okish, and if he gets into Red Bull, he'll get groomed once Vettel leaves, which is probably only a matter of time.
Vergne compared to Ricciardo just seems anonymous.
Buemi was better qualifier, and was more consistent, while Alguersuari due to getting dropped out of Q1 would have the tyre advantage at some tracks, and therefore would finish quiet high in one or two races.
Buemi is Ricciardo, and Alguersuari is basically Jean-Eric Vergne.
Why are they going after Ricciardo? Consistency and qualifying I presume, add to that, the next bach of Toro Rosso drivers don't look any special, so there's pressure to promote one of them into Red Bull, as only 1 driver getting into the top team out of 9 (including the current two) would be considered a big failure in their driver programme.
Ricciardo looks okish, and if he gets into Red Bull, he'll get groomed once Vettel leaves, which is probably only a matter of time.
Vergne compared to Ricciardo just seems anonymous.
Well clearly he's not as popular with the public as Ricciardo is. Always a bonus if you're trying to market a product I guess.
Seems that way. Sly saying "Vergne seems anonymous" sums it up really as if you look at his result he has had the much better runs. Ricciardo starts high and drops where as JEV moves forward.
I guess getting an F1 drive in a top team is about media personality and looking good on a Saturday now days.
Speaking of Buemi and Alguersauri does anyone else share my opinion the Ricciardo and JEV have had far worse equiptment than that pair but pulled off better results? I think they justified the clear out.
I guess getting an F1 drive in a top team is about media personality and looking good on a Saturday now days.
Speaking of Buemi and Alguersauri does anyone else share my opinion the Ricciardo and JEV have had far worse equiptment than that pair but pulled off better results? I think they justified the clear out.
Hm...I wouldn't say so.
2009 the car was a backmarker until Suzuka.
2010 the Toro Rosso car was a step behind the rest of the midfield.
2011 the car was ok but still behind Force India and Sauber, only in the second half of the season was the car competitive compared to the others., but they lost out on several points due to mechanical failures and brainfades from others.
A few big changes in this period aswell with the rules and regulations with refuelling, no refuelling, and then Pirelli tyres.
2012 the car was similar to 2011 of the first half of the season.
2013 the car is quite ahead of Sauber and Williams, so it's likely to get points, and McLaren's slipping further back.
Jean-Eric Vergne pulled out a freak result in Malaysia due to staying out in intermediates, good on him. Ricciardo putting the car in 6th place a few times in qualifying, but the top cars of Ferrari and Lotus do suck in qualifying which we didn't hae in the previous seasons.
It's been a bit similar I would say, but Alguersuari and Buemi had lesser cars until their last half of the season while their competition was slightly ahead.
Ricciardo and Vernge have shown a few flashes just like the other two, but it's been more noticeble due to their competition slipping down, the tyres playing an even bigger part, and the key one being, the Red Bull seat being up for grabs.
I'm not being biased, I'm just telling it how I see it, and also taking their several factors into account aswell.
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Got to disagree with you Sly I think the 2011 Toro Rosso was the best car they've produced in years and wasn't applied properly. Plus JEV and Ricciado have had to compete with far more competitive Merc and Enstone car than Buemi and Alguersauri. Throw in the fact Williams and Sauber were might competitive last year and FI this and I'd say the fact they were pulling results out the bag that are higher up than those two justifys the change.
JEVs result in Canada was scored with all the top teams running and but for a safety car Ricciardo would have done something similar at Silverstone.
As much as I love old Moose I'm afraid I think the new batch has been better.
JEVs result in Canada was scored with all the top teams running and but for a safety car Ricciardo would have done something similar at Silverstone.
As much as I love old Moose I'm afraid I think the new batch has been better.
There is a lot you can debate about on this subject, I think it's even stevens between the two, but the performances are getting noticed now due to Webber leaving, and the fact that Red Bull know now that the Toro Rosso drivers can't succeed without a good car.
I'm not holding in the Buemi (Moose) factor, just feel they both were hard done by, and could have achieved what the current Toro Roso drivers have done. Ricciardo and Vergne have always had the backing from Red Bull in F1, I never saw the same with Alguersuari or Buemi.
The last two had to go through several rule changes aswell, while the current ones have had stable regulations.
2009 was just a disaster for the team, behind everyone in performance apart from Force India, who hit their peak in Spa and Monza being podium contenders collecting 15 points in the old points system, enough to overhaul Toro Rosso.
In 2010 Mercedes and Renault made the top 10 regularly and where quite a bit ahead of the rest of the midfield while Sauber, Force India and Williams well a bit ahead of the Toro Rosso.
2011 Renault were still competitive but Renault dropped off but still were faster, while Mercedes was the best of the rest. I agree with you that the Toro Rosso of that season has been one of the best, but it was only in the second half of the season, where there were mechanical failures in points positions and drivers hitting Alguersuari and Buemi in Spa when both were in 6th place, they were behind everyone in the first half of the season apart from Williams.
2012 Renault was a top 4 car, Mercedes was aswell at the start, but then Mercedes dropped off big time and were sometimes slower than the midfield runners, Toro Rosso was a bit of a hit miss this season, with the car being ok at the start then dropping off in the middle then back up again.
This season, Toro Rosso are on the way up and look competitive, and definitely are ahead of at least two teams which they weren't in 2012, and can look as if they could beat McLaren. Renault again is a top runner, while Mercedes is hit and miss, sometimes a front runner, sometimes midfield, then aboslutely nowhere.
Your second point of ifs and buts could be done for their ex drivers too.
I'm not holding in the Buemi (Moose) factor, just feel they both were hard done by, and could have achieved what the current Toro Roso drivers have done. Ricciardo and Vergne have always had the backing from Red Bull in F1, I never saw the same with Alguersuari or Buemi.
The last two had to go through several rule changes aswell, while the current ones have had stable regulations.
2009 was just a disaster for the team, behind everyone in performance apart from Force India, who hit their peak in Spa and Monza being podium contenders collecting 15 points in the old points system, enough to overhaul Toro Rosso.
In 2010 Mercedes and Renault made the top 10 regularly and where quite a bit ahead of the rest of the midfield while Sauber, Force India and Williams well a bit ahead of the Toro Rosso.
2011 Renault were still competitive but Renault dropped off but still were faster, while Mercedes was the best of the rest. I agree with you that the Toro Rosso of that season has been one of the best, but it was only in the second half of the season, where there were mechanical failures in points positions and drivers hitting Alguersuari and Buemi in Spa when both were in 6th place, they were behind everyone in the first half of the season apart from Williams.
2012 Renault was a top 4 car, Mercedes was aswell at the start, but then Mercedes dropped off big time and were sometimes slower than the midfield runners, Toro Rosso was a bit of a hit miss this season, with the car being ok at the start then dropping off in the middle then back up again.
This season, Toro Rosso are on the way up and look competitive, and definitely are ahead of at least two teams which they weren't in 2012, and can look as if they could beat McLaren. Renault again is a top runner, while Mercedes is hit and miss, sometimes a front runner, sometimes midfield, then aboslutely nowhere.
Your second point of ifs and buts could be done for their ex drivers too.
Just a few brief comments:
Qualifying performance over the last 5 years (from my thread here: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/the-development-race-a-look-at-progress-from-2008-2012.5847/ ):
2008 and 2009 are the only years where they weren't the slowest team on average (excluding the new teams), but they were closer to the team(s) in front of them in 2010 and 2011 than 2012.
I think Vergne and Ricciardo as a pair have got in to less accidents than Buemi and Alguersuari did.
Ricciardo seems like a character and is good with the media whereas Vergne is rarely seen but maybe that only applies for the English speaking media.
I don't think there's much between all four of them to be honest, but the Toro Rosso of the last few years has probably been the hardest car to stand out in as they're classified as being in the midfield but consistently have the slowest car. That does seem to have changed this year though so at some point I will try doing this analysis for 2013... when I have much much more time on my hands.
Disclaimer: Obviously the qualifying times depend on the drivers somewhat...
Qualifying performance over the last 5 years (from my thread here: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/the-development-race-a-look-at-progress-from-2008-2012.5847/ ):
2008 and 2009 are the only years where they weren't the slowest team on average (excluding the new teams), but they were closer to the team(s) in front of them in 2010 and 2011 than 2012.
I think Vergne and Ricciardo as a pair have got in to less accidents than Buemi and Alguersuari did.
Ricciardo seems like a character and is good with the media whereas Vergne is rarely seen but maybe that only applies for the English speaking media.
I don't think there's much between all four of them to be honest, but the Toro Rosso of the last few years has probably been the hardest car to stand out in as they're classified as being in the midfield but consistently have the slowest car. That does seem to have changed this year though so at some point I will try doing this analysis for 2013... when I have much much more time on my hands.
Disclaimer: Obviously the qualifying times depend on the drivers somewhat...
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Qualifying is a HUGE component of choosing between DR and JEV ... DR seems to overqualify the car and fall back ... because the car is clearly not as fast as the top echelon and a couple of midfield runners ... JEV underwhelms on qually and is able to move forward during the race ... race craft / good driving / retirements ... the strategies of both drivers would be different if one is starting 6th and the other 16th ... if it was me I would be thinking ... if DR can push that TR into the top 10 surely he could get the RBR top 6 and have a much faster race package under his right foot ... with JEV you could guess at top 10 qually most times ... sometimes top 12 ... and trying to move forward in a race ... even Seb sometimes struggles with the lack of top end speed to make passes coming from lower positions ... I know MW struggles a lot more ...
I would surmise that Vettel on pole and JEV looking at the tail end of Hulkenberg in a Sauber in 10th is not what RBR would be looking for next year ...
Where is Kimi ... for mine it is a tough call ... be a #2 without being told you are and end up having a right old punch-up with some smart mouth Vettel mechanic after about round 8 next year ... or stay where you are and put your faith in Lotus getting the money to keep you in front running package ...
Hopefully we find out not too long after Hungary ...
I would surmise that Vettel on pole and JEV looking at the tail end of Hulkenberg in a Sauber in 10th is not what RBR would be looking for next year ...
Where is Kimi ... for mine it is a tough call ... be a #2 without being told you are and end up having a right old punch-up with some smart mouth Vettel mechanic after about round 8 next year ... or stay where you are and put your faith in Lotus getting the money to keep you in front running package ...
Hopefully we find out not too long after Hungary ...
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sushifiesta ... do you have the qually data for 2013 to add to your graph ?
Methinks it t'would be quite interesting ...
Methinks it t'would be quite interesting ...
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