Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[racecub]

Accepted. And i don't know the exact words because I heard them second hand, that's why I said "I think he said something after the race to the effect "

Now what I do know he said is...
"I had my target laps and the team weren't confident that I was going to make it to those laps but I knew I would."

So I would use that verified quote to put the more vague sentiment he expressed to the team into context.

 

[Dizzi]

From the little bit I could hear in the pre-podium room Lewis's conversation with Sam used the word "trust" not "believe" which presumable puts a different slant on it (you didn't trust me?) Mephistopheles perhaps you can interpret!
I'd love to have heard the conversation clearer but they're very good at muffling the sound...

 

[RickD]

racecub - Lewis didn't seem to question it, what he said on the radio was "If you're sure" or very similar. Jenson was the one who questioned it and Lewis was told that they wouldn't be going onto the 3 stopper as soon as it was obvious that McLaren had made a cock up with Jensons strategy and race. He was told after Jenson had been put behind Bruno for a lap or two. What should have happened is that Jenson should have stayed out, especially as the lap times were still fine for Jenson and he was still matching (or very close to) the leaders times at that point. He even said that his tyres were working well and he was surprised by the call. Instead of fighting for minor points, Jenson should have been fighting for a podium place!

 

[racecub]

We don't hear all the radio messages. Lewis clearly wanted to stay on the two stopper and was comfortable with the tyres. His comments afterwards suggest he may have argued his case, but we don't know.
Dizzi If the word used was 'trust' rather than 'believe', I find that rather more worrying; I mean that Lewis feels Mclaren don't trust him. To believe in someone suggests a certain amount of blind faith that the said person can do the unexpected. But to trust someone suggests an expectation that they will carry out their job competently. McLaren have placed trust and blind faith in Button's guidance and it led them up the garden path (on set up) Perhaps it's time to afford Lewis the same luxury....or will he always be viewed as McLaren's ' little experiment'. If that's the case then that is the biggest reason for Lewis to leave Mclaren...which would be a shame.
Of course the above is how I view the words 'trust' and 'believe', the important thing is what they mean to the person who uses them.

 

[The Pits]

To hang anything on a muffled conversation with no notion of context I think is simply daft. I can remember Jeremy Beadles catch phrase at one point was "trust me"

It may be true, the team do not trust Lewis, however, it may have been an off the cuff remark, with no real undertones.

 

[racecub]

Yes, entirely possible. But the sentiment was reflected in his later interview.

 

[Quintessentially]

It was a mistake for Button to stop 3 times. However, it made perfect sense in trying to stay ahead of Vettel. However, unfortunately, it turned into a bit of a cock-up because Bruno was ahead of him....

The lap charts are here.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Pages/event-information.aspx

Jenson was probably stuck between a rock and a hard place in the laps before McLaren decided to put him on 3 stop stops.

Lap 33
Jenson Lap 33 1:28.041
Vettel Lap 33: 1:27.559
Senna Lap 33 1:27.634

Almost half a second difference between Jenson and Vettel and even Senna was going faster at this point.

Lap 34
Jenson: 1:29.971 (inlap; For comparison Vettel did a 1:26.512 on lap 35 although it’s worth mentioning that he was on the faster tyre)
Vettel: 1:28.084
Senna 1:27.697

Jenson was again significantly slower than both drivers and probably should’ve pitted the lap before to cover Senna whose lap times did not hit the 1:28s until lap 39. Keeping him out would’ve only made things worse but at least he would’ve taken Vettel with him. I question whether he was informed that he was going to come out close to Senna because his exit was quite slow and didn’t appear to even use KERS. McLaren’s strategists were definitely guilty of once again failing to think on their feet and failed to spot the dangers of their pre-determined strategy early enough to salvage Jenson’s race. You have to say that Jenson’s relatively poor pace was also a contributory factor.

 

[The Pits]

Quintessentially lap 33 was half a second slower than most of Jensons previous laps. He was on the harder tyre, and unless it was thought the tyres had gone off, which I am not sure they had, it would have been sensible to let him carry on. The slower lap on lap 34 was his in lap, and some of the lap is done on the pit lane speed limiter. Another lap in the low 1.27s would have done the job, maybe 2, and losing a few tenths if it was the tyres would have made little difference overall.

 

[teabagyokel]

The eagle eyed amongst you will notice several comments have been deleted. This is because to criticise the "paranoid posturings" of Hamilton fans is a passive-agressive comment against members of this site. Certain responses to this also did not add to the discussion.

And, as a point of order, it is not acceptable to quote an entire post to signal your agreement with it above and beyond the "like" function. This behaviour was discussed previously by the administrators, and is against Rule 5.

Please stick to the topic in hand rather than critiquing the rest of the thread.

 

[snowy]

For quite some time I have been spouting off and rattling on about how Mclaren's race pace and particularly Lewis's was being handicapped by their obsession with conserving tyres. I have been bemoaning the fact that not attacking the tyres was more detrimental than allowing Lewis to use his natural aggressive inclinations. In Autosport today Jenson Button sheds light on the problems he was having with set up and understanding the Pirreli tyres.

"So we went back to what we had at the start of the year at Valencia, and that's when we started being more competitive in terms of me within the team being more competitive, not compared to Ferrari and Mercedes and Red Bull but compared to Lewis [Hamilton]."
Button explained that keeping the Pirellis in the correct operating window had been his main issue, with his famously smooth style not always paying dividends.
"Most of the problem this year has been in and out of the range where they work, and that's a difficulty," he said. "You try and drive gentle with them to look after them, and they drop out of the range and you end up damaging the tyre more than if you keep them in the range and are aggressive with the tyre.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101875

If they had just listened to me they could have wrapped up both Championships by now!

I'm serious!

No! I really am...

Stop laughing!

 

[Bill Boddy]

Of course you are snowy. Now just settle down a moment whilst I put this special coat on you. It' will help stop you waving your arms about quite so much.

 

[MCLS]

snowy has a very valid point. Canada shows that where Hamilton had to make an extra stop. But fresh tyres can make the difference even if you are running a 9/10 lap stint at the end, you can be so much as 2/3 seconds a lap faster even if your car isn't as good on pure pace. It is more beneficial for Hamilton (and indeed Button) to push the tyres instead of saving them and make an extra stop because it'll be quicker anyway

 

[sushifiesta]

I don't want to be pedantic, but don't forget that Button did more stops than Hamilton at Montreal and was absolutely nowhere at any point during the race. I think there's some truth to what you're saying but it's about as clear as mud what the best way to use the tyres is.

 

[snowy]

I don't want to be pedantic, but don't forget that Button did more stops than Hamilton at Montreal and was absolutely nowhere at any point during the race.

Indeed but Jenson was lower down the order and trying to conserve his tyres. Not putting enough energy into his tyres was his undoing in Canada too. Had Lewis been stuck in traffic he too would have tried to conserve his tyres and would have ultimately been just as slow. Which Lewis has been countless times this season in race conditions. He and his engineers (idiots) scratching their heads and wondering where the pace was.

 

[Jen]

Jenson does seem to have got it right with set up this time. Only hope he can convert it to a win.

 

[racecub]

Well Mclaren have got it right for him, and dealt Lewis a duff hand. I guess that delays Whitmarsh's painful decision of asking Jenson to support Lewis for a few more weeks.

 

[racecub]

It gets worse. Not only is it the better set up. They gave Jenson a new wing and Lewis the old one. What about the one leading gets the upgrades first?? Its very difficult to like Mr. Whitmarsh.

Lewis' tweet:-

LewisHamilton
Damn, WTF!! Jenson has the new rear wing on, I have the old. We voted to change, didn't work out. I lose 0.4 tenths just on the straight.

 

[Jen]

Ever thought that Lewis may have picked his own bloody set up?

The constant bleating is really quite trying particularly as you constantly represent 'your man' as incapable of making relevant decisons.

Yes, Lewis has been unlucky with pit stops and strategy sometimes, which is maybe out of his control but I suspect that he has more input than you ever give him credit for.

 

[racecub]

No he didnt pick his own set up. Mclaren split it because they didnt have time to test everything. At least its a refreshing change to hear a Mclaren driver say he'll do all he can to support his team mate as he feels he has no chance himself.

PS. I grant Lewis may have been involved in the rear wing swap decision-depends how tyou read his tweet). But is there no engineer at McLaren that can make sensible decisions?

 

[Jen]

Perhaps Lewis needs to get a little more 'involved' then - can't believe this is the same young man who told Ron Dennis he wanted to drive a McLaren!