Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[The Pits]

riskitall, the only thing I would disagree with you on is the field spread in 2010, the field was not as close as it is now, however, the field was far closer than it was in 2011, with the renaults, and Mercedes a lot closer, Ferrari were also a lot stronger.

I am also not sure that anyone has really disagreed with the position which you have stated, there just seems to be disagreement over the details, which is understandable, given some of the comments which have been made.

The way I look at it, Usain Bolt is the fastest runner in the world, and if he is 100%, he is unlikely to be beaten. However, if he gets a poor start, or someone ties his shoelaces together, he may not win.

The same as Lewis and Jenson. That said, there were times, when Jenson was very strong, and a little faster, some examples are above.

Here we are, at post 1421, having gone over several points in great detail, and we have come up with
Lewis is faster, but Jenson beats him sometimes. Sometimes one of them has a problem.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/06/whats-happened-to-jenson-buttons-form/

Button confirmed that the start point for this effort will be to work from Lewis Hamilton’s set up and then evolve from there, “The fist thing you do is set the car up like the other one and that’s how we’ll do it initially,” he said. “I won’t be as quick as him on those settings but then we can work from there and find a set up that works for me.”

Also posted in the Button thread but i thought it was also relevant here. Mods feel free to delete if not

 

[Quintessentially]

Good idea, I guess he finally swallowed his pride. I hope he doesn't want driving lessons from Ham too.

 

[riskitall]

In my view Jenson did get a few digs in at Lewis last year and could be accused of kicking a man while he was down. The comments about taking his side of the garage out for dinner, having a bigger say in this year's car, his bubble and his overall paly demeanour with MW was designed to wrestle the team from Lewis into his clutches. It would have worked but for his lacklustre performances of late.

He wasn't alone of course, there were many up and down the Paddock, some of the BBC commentaors and the F1 hacks that were glad to see Lewis apparent downfall - humbling even by the stand up guy, Jenson. How many times have people commented that Lewis is not worth a bigger contract than Jenson as Jenson is just as good if not better? How many have suggested Mclaren get rid of Lewis and pair Button with an uspstart.

If some of you have followed his career you will know that he is an up and down driver that struggles when the car is not perfect. He was good in the Williams - not as good as Ralf mind - he was rubbish in the Bennetton. Good in the BAR with the false fuel tank, rubbish with the later iterations. When the car is not perfect he is not that great - when it's in his window he is peerless. Nothing new there guys.

My opinion is that he gap between the drivers is too small nowadays. Being 2/3 tens slower than lewis now translates to missing out in Q3 or starting a few more places than Lewis. Jenson has developed the car in the wrong direction trying to close the gap. Funny how he is now going to use Lewis' set up as a baseline when he was considered the superior developer.

 

[Viscount]

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I think the car development has moved away from Buttons preferences. At the start of the season his influence was maybe more, carried over from last year, as the other teams caught up and Mac were forced to adapt quickly they had to go the shortest route, via Lewis. The new direction has brought more emphasis on downforce at the front because of the need to heat the tyres and Jenson does not like uncertainty at the back end of a car

Starting with Lewis' setup is fine but Jenson will have to very quickly adapt the setup to eliminate any drift at the back which would make that 'flicking round' approach the slowest of all round corners. By the time he has adapted it enough he might be facing the only choice left - exit his comfort zone and start driving more like Lewis, i.e. unceremoniously around corners

 

[tranquility2k9]

I have to add a comment in now. McLaren at the moment are clearly bringing different parts to the races to suit Jenson as the best overall aerodynamic direction or optimum downforce direction is not suiting him. Therefore, in essence, they are spending time developing parts to suit Jenson and wasting time getting him happy in the car at the expense of creating an even faster car. I know in their overall interests, they need to do this to get the constructors championship, but in terms of having an overall faster car and winning the WDC with Lewis, it isn't helpful. I have always strongly felt that ever since Jenson came into the team, their development has not been at optimum level due to often having to bring extra parts to cater for Jenson or even sometimes develop the car in his direction.

This year the cars have less downforce, especially on the rear and so they're harder to drive. The goal from McLaren would have been to make a car go as fast as possible within the restrictive set of regulations that are in place. With Lewis they can always do this - literally bolt on bits that make it go faster and even if it still makes it harder to drive, he'll still generally get the performance out of it. With Jenson it just goes the opposite way.

I think since 2010, this has been going on. Prior to that, when Hamilton was the clear number 1 in the team, they'd just develop the car for him, or more should I say, develop the car for optimum performance. You feel now they lose that little edge in develop having to cater for Jenson's quite "picky" requirements. No one can argue with that. It's not a big loss, but they may lose 1/10th of their development potential, maybe even less than that, but over a season, that's a big difference!

I used to get annoyed by this and I guess I kind of forgot about it during 2011 as everything was going well for Jenson. But this year has really put it back in the spotlight. I ask everyone this question, whether it be for right or wrong - would Ferrari waste development time trying to sort out Massa's issues, or just focus everything 100% on the overall car performance, to suit Alonso? ... but really, just to suit the car performance, as Alonso can drive around it!

Thinking back, during this season, McLaren have brought relatively little in terms of upgrades apart from at Barcelona. Lewis commented on this after the last race. It seems Ferrari and RB are bringing several new bits to each race yet McLaren are not. I'm hoping they have a big upgrade for Valencia, but it certainly isn't inconceivable that their development rate has been halted, trying to fix Jenson's well documented 2012 issues.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

tranquility2k9 First you say they're bringing new parts that cater to Button, then you say that they're bringing no new parts as Hamilton commented on this. Which one is it? Also just because McLaren are trying to help Button that wouldn't halt work in the aero department in Woking, the mechanics and engineers would be responsible for helping Button find his feet.

I don't know where you get your information (only the point about Hamilton's comment seems correct) and I think you are making a lot of generalisations which are probably not true.

 

[tranquility2k9]

tranquility2k9 First you say they're bringing new parts that cater to Button, then you say that they're bringing no new parts as Hamilton commented on this. Which one is it? Also just because McLaren are trying to help Button that wouldn't halt work in the aero department in Woking, the mechanics and engineers would be responsible for helping Button find his feet.

I don't know where you get your information (only the point about Hamilton's comment seems correct) and I think you are making a lot of generalisations which are probably not true.

OK, should I say they're bringing a lack of parts because they're spending time trying to fix Jenson's "setup problems" on a car that Lewis won a race with. That make it a little more clear for you? The fact is they brought a newer suspension setup to Canada, which they wouldn't have done if it hadn't of been faster overall, but Jenson was never going to even try it. Does that not sound strange?

I don't get my information from anywhere. I am making what I feel is a logical and justified assumption based on events that have occurred this year.

Also I should add that my use of the word "parts" above should probably be defined. When I say "parts", I do not always mean physical or pieces of equipment that change on the car, I mean the overall and general development / direction of the car from an aerodynamic, mechanical and thus performance point of view. When I said they are bringing parts for Jenson, I meant, they are spending time developing areas for him. When I said Hamilton commented on a lack of parts, I was more referring to the overall performance of the car.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

I still fail to see how the race team trying to fix Button's set-up means that the guys back at the factory can't produce parts. Whether or not Button chose to use a new part is irrelvant because it doesn't affect Hamilton in any meaningful way, surely it benefits Hamilton because Button will be slower.

 

[tranquility2k9]

no-FIAt-please, I'll take a quite exaggerated viewpoint on this but it will make my point clearer hopefully.

Let's say that McLaren have taken a fundamental direction change in their development path, e.g. the higher nose, that has really caused Jenson large problems with his individual performance, but overall in the wind tunnel and on the race track, is showing a performance gain.

McLaren have 2 options, either ignore Jenson's problems and focus 100% on optimum car performance or spend "some" of their time fixing Jenson's problems. Now that time could be spent purely in the simulator on setup, but I find it highly unlikely and much more likely that the physical design, development, manufacturing and delivery of small parts (at the very least) will be on-going, to help him. The man hours, costs, manufacturing, etc, etc, that goes into this will be at the expense of development on the winning Canadian GP car, to make that even better than it is (irrelevant of other performance development programs). Now none of us know how much time is being "wasted" or spent on the whole Jenson issue, but for sure, now he has lost form for several races, you can bet it is a worthy measurable attribute in the whole development chain.

 

[tranquility2k9]

I still fail to see how the race team trying to fix Button's set-up means that the guys back at the factory can't produce parts. Whether or not Button chose to use a new part is irrelvant because it doesn't affect Hamilton in any meaningful way, surely it benefits Hamilton because Button will be slower.

I didn't say that the race team helping Jenson means they cannot produce parts. They still can, but any time lost doing that means not as many as would otherwise be possible.

If Jenson chooses to have new parts then it does actually indeed affect Hamilton in a meaningful way because Hamilton has less parts coming his way or should I say, the overall optimum performance of the car is detrimented by this.

Just because Button is slower at the moment - Hamilton has to fight all the other guys on the grid remember.

 

[The Pits]

In Canada they bought a new suspension for Lewis, which Jenson was planning not to use, and they also turned off an electric gizmo of some description. The new suspension included a new gearbox casing.

Aero updates tend to have a fairly reasonable gestation period, but come through the pipeline eventually. Interest here is that McLaren going for the high nose in season may have hampered their upgrade plan, in a similar way to the ebd in 2010.

My understanding, from the evidence I have seen is that the upgrades are coming through, although slowly, and the race team are trying to give Jenson a set up which suits him. I personally do not believe that this is hampering either driver, or the performance of the car. I could be wrong on this however I am not aware of the update plans and processes at mclaren, so I will await any leaks or press reports to let us all know what is going on. I won't hold my breath though.

 

[RasputinLives]

MS braking a leg and missing half the season = the same as Lewis having girl problems and a dip in form.

OK.............................

 

[Quintessentially]

I think the car development has moved away from Buttons preferences. At the start of the season his influence was maybe more, carried over from last year, as the other teams caught up and Mac were forced to adapt quickly they had to go the shortest route, via Lewis. The new direction has brought more emphasis on downforce at the front because of the need to heat the tyres and Jenson does not like uncertainty at the back end of a car

Jenson's sudden slump is nothing new as highlighted by Riskitall above. His career is littered with these mediocre showings, only this time it's slightly prolonged. Let's not forget what happened in the Brawn in the second half of the 09 season. Cars will always evolve over a season and the creme de la creme will always adapt.

 

[tranquility2k9]

This is a little amusing:- https://twitter.com/F1Humour/status/214413845165383680

PREPARING JENSON'S CAR FOR QUALIFYING… ███████████░░░░░░░░░░░ 45% DONE... Balance error. Failed!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Thanks to Spanish TV in Valencia we can finally put this whole argument to bed. The whole thing has been settled in absolutely equal machinery, no traffic and identical setup and conditions. Even the tyre factor is erradicated.

 

[Mezzer]

ExtremeNinja Great vid, I had a chuckle. Frankly, though, the thing I found most interesting was the speed of the downshifts, just gives you some idea of what it must be like when they hit the anchors.

 

[RickD]

Interesting video, would be better knowing where they thibnk they are on the circuit though as there were definitely points Lewis wasn't turning the wheel at all for a hell of a long time.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

You mean compared to Jenson who looked like he was trying to balance a broom on the end of his nose while patting his head and rubbing his stomach with his foot. Lewis looked like the little Lewis that we saw on Blue Peter all those years ago. His focus was immense compared to Jenson's lack of. I know it's all a bit of fun but I think that video is quite telling of the difference in the way that they operate.