Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[The Pits]

I would actually go as far as saying that Jenson has never ever beaten Lewis on track without Lewis having a clear and quantifiable issue outside pure driving ability and pace

Well, can I start with Australia and China 2010? in Oz, when Lewis came together with Webber, Jenson was out in front.

India 2011, again, Jenson was out in front before Lewis and Massa came together.

Not sure if you would count Monza 2011 or not, I would not really count Monza 2010, as there is no telling what may have happened.

Not a long list, by any means, but a list nonetheless

 

[RasputinLives]

I would actually go as far as saying that Jenson has never ever beaten Lewis on track without Lewis having a clear and quantifiable issue outside pure driving ability and pace (If I am wrong I am sure someone will present the better argument)

Lets give credit where credits due on some of JB's performances last year shall we. For starters he was untouchable in Japan by anyone.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Agreed The Pits each of these races you refer to Jenson was ahead. However the point remains that Lewis was prevented from competing with Jenson for reasons beyond pace or racing ability. So in Aus and China 2010 there were incidents to mitigate Lewis finishing behind.

Also has Jenson ever started behind Lewis and beaten him without Lewis having an extraordinary incident? First race this year for example, Lewis had a clutch setting issue that allowed Jenson to pass him

Has Jenson ever out qualified him without Lewis having an incident or trying to save tyres or missing the cut for Q3 etc?

 

[RasputinLives]

The thing is it Cook it depends how you define problem. For me(and Lewis by the way) Jenson beat Lewis fair and square in Australia but you'll claim a clutch problem. Also if Lewis crashes into someone and therefore gets beaten by Jenson, Jenson has beaten Lewis fair and square because he's made it to the finish line and Lewis hasn't.

I'm sure every example I give you'll be able to tell me I'm wrong.

(Apart from Japan 2011 of course where Jenson was faster than Lewis in nearly every session and beat him and everyone else hands down in the race but I'm guessing Lewis had a cold that day or something? bad Sushi?)

 

[Josh]

China 2011 when Jenson started second and Hamilton third.

I'd argue a few others,like Japan 2011, where Hamilton got spooked by Webber overtaking him on his out-lap and didn't make it across the line in time. I know we'd just end up going in circles though so I'm not even going to bother with it.

 

[RasputinLives]

Brazil 2011?

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Ok Josh and RasputinLives, I will let jenson have his dues

He beat Lewis fair and square in 3 races out of 50

 

[Fenderman]

Selective memory is a wonderful thing. me, I like to read the race reports before making my final analysis and certainly before making excessively bum-lickin' statements Check this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Japanese_Grand_Prix

 

[RasputinLives]

Singapore 2011?

 

[Josh]

Ok Josh and RasputinLives, I will let jenson have his dues

He beat Lewis fair and square in 3 races out of 50

Qualifying isn't where you get the points though . So despite Hamilton being the quicker of the two in qualifying, he has often run into problems during the race while already behind Button.
And it's the same the other way around (which some people like to forget) so to claim that he has only beaten Lewis fair and square (by your definition) is a bit far-fetched.

 

[The Pits]

Cookinflatsix what were the incidents in Oz and China? my memory is not great, but the only incidents I recall would not have affected the outcome.

To be honest, I think that this could end up being a little futile. I think the majority of reasonable Jenson supporters would cede that Lewis is a faster driver, and will prevail in the majority of situations, that is clear to see, however, to write off every time that Jenson has beaten Lewis, stating that it is to do with an event outside of Lewis' control I think is wrong.

For example, Monza 2010. Was that an extraordinary situation? driver error? Massa's fault really? classification of what constitutes an issue out of the drivers control would also lead to more discussions.

To that end, I am happy that Jenson has on occasion outperformed Lewis, mostly not be much. Lewis had his own issues, which Jenson has capitalised on, and also team errors, which have upset the apple cart, not limited to Lewis, however.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The Pits Jenson has beaten Lewis in a few races, it is the exception to the rule, and its hard to define extraordinary events

the point here is in answer to a previous poster claiming that Jenson had driven faster than Lewis in several races last year. I am just stating that Jenson does not drive faster than Lewis and beat him unless Lewis has an issue. Yes those issues are part of racing but Lewis has cut those out this year and the result is dominance. Jensons advantage came from making no mistakes last year, not from driving faster

 

[RasputinLives]

Cookinflatsix - as Jenson's problems have been put down to an issue with the suspension by Martin Whitmarsh and Ron Dennis does that mean Lewis beating Jenson in Canada doesn't count?

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The issue with the suspension at Canadawas a result of an attempt to correct Jensons previous performance where he came last of the established players. So it could be argued that it was an accident or an act of God, or an extraordinary event that represents an anomaly

but 1/2 a point per race for 4 races would kind of negate that thinking, indeed a cynic could suggest that had Jenson not gambled on the suspension he might have come18th and not 16th

 

[Josh]

I am just stating that Jenson does not drive faster than Lewis and beat him unless Lewis has an issue

And that statement is blatantly wrong. Button was going faster than Lewis for nearly the entire Grand Prix and he was ahead of Hamilton at the time of his incident with Massa.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Josh but Lewis still had an issue though did he not? Going by the stats between the two Lewis should still have beaten him by the end of the race without the issue

anyway as The Pits said earlier this discussion could end in futility

Jenson beat Lewis last year, not because he was faster or drove better but because Lewis had issues

This year without those issues its 7 - 0 in quali and 5 - 2 in races I believe, and we are not counting team errors and mistakes or it would be 7 - 0 in races as well

So we cant say Jenson beat Lewis last year by driving faster, Jenson s strengths are no mistakes and consistent driving in a good car, he does not beat Lewis on track if Lewis doesn't have issues

 

[Josh]

Lewis was lapping slower. What is so hard to understand about this? He wouldn't have beaten him because he was going slower. He wasn't faster than Button before the incident and he wasn't faster after the incident. Sorry to burst your bubble but Button was faster that day.

 

[Fenderman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Singapore_Grand_Prix

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Although Lewis didn't qualify in Q3 and received a drive through penalty in the race and had contact with someone

Button was faster that day

 

[Slyboogy]

Well played Josh!