Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[liloyster]

Last year Jenson outpaced Lewis at a lot more races than hes given credit for. I remember Hungary where in a straight fight Jenson came out on top. This year however Lewis really seems to have everything hooked up and even if Jenson discovers his 2011 form I cant see him beating Lewis.

 

[tranquility2k9]

tranquility2k9

Taking just the first of your observations - regarding Lewis finishing so far behind Jenson at Singapore, you seem to have forgotten his coming together with fellow crash magnet of the season, Felipe Massa. It really isn't good enough to harp on about speed whilst ignoring other factors at play during races. If you look at Lewis's 2011 season his problems had more to do with the racing incidents in which he was involved, including the infamous Canada connection with Jenson.

Edit: Just checked on Japan. lo and behold The Ham had made it up to second in the first stint, got pushed bak to fifth in the pitstops and in the midst of all this who should he meet inconveniently to help bring out the safety car? Why Flippy of course!

Sorry, mate, no offence, but stat's never give you the complete picture you have to work with the context and the happenstance which requires reading more than just the numbers.

I agree and fully am aware that comparing a fastest lap from a race when many factors can skew that result is not really the best or most reliable form of comparison. In-fact I did not intend to put together some concrete statistics to back up my initial comments because I feel they were just general judgements and observations that I had from a few races last year. So when I then got prompted to back up what I was saying with some facts, I just took what was the most available and easily accessible information.

What I do know is that after every qualifying/race I generally always analyse all the documents provided by the FIA on lap times, etc, and often have the live timing app open whilst watching the race to compare lap times. Although the overall gap that Lewis finished behind Jenson is skewed by his collision with Massa and thus a drive-through penalty, I can remember that when Lewis was in clear air in the 2nd half of the race and on similar tyres to Jenson, he was lapping nearly a second or more slower consistently. I can remember this clearly in my head, the reason being, is as a Hamilton fan, I was slightly concerned, and if you care to find the FIA lap by lap timing sheets from Singapore last year to prove me wrong you can. But I don't know how to retrieve any beyond what was the previous Grand Prix. Plus, I like to think my memory of something that happened less than a year ago is not too unreliable.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

If someone crashes into another driver, receives a drive through and has absolutely no chance of winning the race, could this be taken into consideration when comparing his lap times with those of his team mate who qualified high up and had no issues

Surely after a crash one doesnt tend to drive faster than before? The feeling that your car sustained hidden damage etc might just temper your need to be the fastest man on track, maybe?

 

[tranquility2k9]

Why, stone me! What do I find when checking out my memory of India? Yup! Crash magnetism effect no.5 with none other than Flippy Massa. Strewth, that's three strikes and one is out. New evidence required tranquility2k9. I now feel like a total spoilsport for bringing all this up. Unfortunately, it is a necessary evil that I quite like facts as well as fiction. Again, sorry mate.

I do not see why you are banging on about this supposed "evidence" that I gave. All I intended to do was make an initial comment in this thread to say that people shouldn't be so quick to jump on Jenson's issues because Lewis had a few races in the latter half of 2011 when he was a bit lost with the car and wasn't on the pace of Jenson! I was saying this based on my memory of what happened at some races last year and then thought I'd grab some stats to back it up. Admittedly, those I found were not the most reliable and I guess they just left me open to be "shot down" by someone like you. But then again, I think they backed up the general point I was making in the first place.

A typical example can be seen from Lewis' interview after Suzuka, which doesn't sound too dissimilar from what we've heard from Jenson recently!

Lewis Hamilton: "I had a bit of a shocking race to be honest - but Jenson [Button] did a fantastic job which is great for the team. Congratulations to Sebastian [Vettel] too - we knew it was coming but he's had a perfect season. Personally, I just need to keep my head up and keep working hard. I think we have a better car now - Jenson has just shown that with a remarkable race - but I just didn't have any grip, I need to find some pace from somewhere."

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Did Jenson lap Lewis in that race?

 

[tranquility2k9]

Did Jenson lap Lewis in that race?

No? Why?

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I thought you said Lewis didn't sound too dissimilar to Jenson after the race so I figured his lack of grip and lack of pace must have placed him 16th or something

 

[tranquility2k9]

If you're still banging on about a general comment I made about 100 posts ago where I said:- "In-fact im sure Jenson lapped Lewis last year at some point", then get over it already. I purposely haven't followed up on that since because I realise that in-fact, he did not get lapped and I think if you look at what I said initially, I did not say "JENSON LAPPED LEWIS FACT", I just suggested that I strongly thought he did because I remember him being a long way behind in 1 or 2 races, but now I realise im wrong. Damn, better remember to research every little comment I make in the future or else it is in risk of causing an uproar.

 

[tranquility2k9]

I thought you said Lewis didn't sound too dissimilar to Jenson after the race so I figured his lack of grip and lack of pace must have placed him 16th or something

But a comparison between this year and last in terms of finishing position is completely irrelevant because the cars are so much closer this year. You could finish 2nd last year by 20 seconds and this year you'd be 10th or something in some races for example. The point I was making was that Lewis was out-paced by Jenson sometimes last year and it wasn't just because he had a crash, he was in clean air on the similar tyres and just didn't have the pace of Jenson on a few occasions. Hence, why he was so mystified after Suzuka, as the interview shows above.

 

[Fenderman]

It strikes me that having had some excitement early in a race, suffering a drive through, dropping back to 17th place and having to claw one's way back through the pack to finish in 5th would perhaps influence one's lap times. I was quite apologetic to you in my earlier post tranquility2k9. Not any more. Apologies retracted.

 

[Mezzer]

Can't we all ...just ... get along???!!

 

[MajorDanby]

Well... how to add anything new?

I agree, Button is not 1.5 s slower than Hamilton. It is also about something more than the tyres, although if he is struggling to generate heat into the tyres, not getting the Pirell's into the correct working range is certainly a good way to go about having slow pace and destroying the tyres at the same time! He has certainly struggled since the 'clarification' by the FIA and changes to the front splitter. McLaren need to do some homework.

Saying this, if the Lewis Hamilton we are seeing now is the same guy we see for the rest of the season, then Button will struggle even on his 'A' game.

Its my personal opinion that Lewis on average was still significantly faster than Jenson in 2011. Sadly for Lewis though, banging into cars and getting penelties is not the best way to go about accumulating points.

If Lewis has learnt consistancy then anyone is going to struggle to beat him over a season.

 

[RasputinLives]

At the end of the day however certain posters try to rewrite history the only stats that matter are that the two of them have had two seasons as team mates and we currently sit at one all. seven races into the third season Lewis looks well on top but lets remember we have anither 13 gps eh?

The thing that confuses me about the people trying to argue Button is way off Hamiltons skill level is there kinda doing Lewis down because tge worse you make Jenson look the worse Lewis looks for being out scored by him.

There is no shame in being beaten by a team mate the once. excluding rookies only Vettel and Kobi of the current field have never lost to a team mate.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The thing that confuses me about the people trying to argue Button is way off Hamiltons skill level is there kinda doing Lewis down because tge worse you make Jenson look the worse Lewis looks for being out scored by him.

Not really, as there were mitigating circumstances for being outscored outside skill level

Irvine beat MS one season, but it was probably because MS broke his leg. The stats say Irvine beat MS that season and was therefore on his skill level as he was better that year. Not saying Lewis broke his leg, however his issues were mostly outside his driving skill level. Crashing into the same guy several times and getting penalties many times.

I think thats the point being put across here in answer to the proposition that Button was faster and had a higher skill level last year.

But I do see your point and kudos to Button, he grabbed the chance and beat Lewis last year

 

[tranquility2k9]

It strikes me that having had some excitement early in a race, suffering a drive through, dropping back to 17th place and having to claw one's way back through the pack to finish in 5th would perhaps influence one's lap times. I was quite apologetic to you in my earlier post tranquility2k9. Not any more. Apologies retracted.

Fair play. We were just looking at it from 2 different angles I guess, but I appreciate what you say. I guess im fighting a bit of a losing argument on this one after all. I only wanted to make a general point that Button out-paced Hamilton last year on a few occasions and I guess I dug myself a bit of a hole. Clearly Hamilton's raw pace compared to Jenson's last year was no where near as poor comparatively to Jenson vs Lewis in the last few races this year.

You are quite right in the sense that he had some incidents and other circumstances that probably left him psychologically demotivated at some points during certain races last year and this likely effected his lap time.

 

[KekeTheKing]

The thing I love about this thread is that it only serves to entrench one's personal opinion. There's really nothing wrong with it as this is the perfect place to go back back and forth on this topic. This debate doesn't really spill over to other threads anymore, so I say have at it guys!

As for 2011 (once again), it was by far Lewis' worst season in any category he's ever raced. And by his own admission, on several occasions, it was Jenson's best. Beating Hamilton seemed more satisfying to Button than clinging on to the World Championship.
I'm starting to think that 2011 has served Lewis better than Jenson.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Also, there were a few races where Lewis made a point of driving around within his limit as he was only interested in finishing a race without incident. I think its safe to assume that if he lapped slower than his teammate in those races it wasnt because he was fundamentally slower or had less race skill, ergo a mitigating circumstance.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The thing I love about this thread is that it only serves to entrench one's personal opinion. There's really nothing wrong with it as this is the perfect place to go back back and forth on this topic.

As long as there are no personal insults and as long as those who are easily upset by sports partisanship avoid the thread I believe all participants are getting out what they put in - lively debate about the two top British drivers in the top British team

 

[Fenderman]

Nice to see things calm down a bit. good work folk's. For those who are interested tranquility2k9 and I have cleared up our own little misunderstanding - one to one - which is nice.

 

[riskitall]

In 2010, Hamilton beat Button in qualifying 14-5 and in the race, 12-7. Of those races where Button was ahead, two were his wins in wet conditions at the beginning of the year, four were Hamilton's retirements (2 mechanical, 2 driver error) and one was in Japan where Hamilton had gearbox trouble. Button had two retirements that weren't his fault. In dry conditions, when neither car had any problems, Hamilton beat Button every time. The reason the points gap was small was because the top three teams were a long way ahead of the others so Button often finished only one or two places behind. Using the difference in places in the WDC just exaggerates this.

In 2011, Hamilton beat Button in qualifying 13-6, while Button beat Hamilton 10-9 in races. Again, Button had two retirements that weren't his fault. Hamilton had three retirements, of which two were driver error and one mechanical. Suddenly an apparently bigger gap is put into perspective. 2011 is widely regarded as Button's best season and Hamilton's worst, yet Hamilton still beat him comfortably in qualifying and finished ahead in half the races. The points gap is bigger because Hamilton went into self destruct at races like Malaysia, Monaco and India and finished further behind.

I don't like the term 'destroyed', but over the time they have been team mates, Hamilton has had a clear speed advantage over Button.

button is NOT faster than lewis.it just may seem that way from time to time if lewis is having to drive slower during the race for whatever reason.
i mean if alonso was faster than massa in quali and then massa was quicker in the race ppl would say"thats strange,that shouldnt be happening"the same applies if vettel was quicker in quali and webber was quicker in the race.
but lewis is quicker in quali,button at times quicker in the race,and ppl think thats perfectly normal.
i think ppl need to look at the bigger picture,by looking at everything that happened in quali and the race,then youre able to see the reality alot better.