Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[The Pits]

Yes he did, as did Jenson, but that was not my point. That there were 5 or 6 more cars in the same space this year, even taking into account the fact that in 2011 the gap was only created in the time after the red flag, the penalty for dropping down the field is significantly greater.

 

[tranquility2k9]

tranquility2k9

I'm not sure where you're getting your lap charts from

When I made that prior post I wasn't looking at anything statistically but just remembering what I saw. I will now find some statistics though seeming as you have made the offer.

Singapore 2011 - Hamilton finished 66 seconds behind Button ( http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2011/854/6903/results.html ) and Lewis' fastest lap on lap 54, which was the same lap Jenson set his fastest lap, was 2.4 seconds slower than Jenson's lap. Jenson did a 1.48.4 and Lewis did a 1.50.8 ( http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2011/854/6903/fastest_laps.html )

Suzuka 2011 - Hamilton finished 24 seconds behind Button and his fastest lap was a second slower, set on a comparable lap.

India 2011 - Lewis finished 76 seconds behind Button and fastest lap was 8 tenths slower.

OK so Singapore is the best example but there was also a big advantage in Suzuka and India as I regularly remember seeing Button lapping a second or so faster when they were both in clear air but just cannot find the stats as I'd need the FIA timing sheets. i know Lewis had an incident in India, but he was still never anywhere near JB.

What you have to figure, which hopefully you already do, is that im a big Lewis Hamilton fan, so im not trying to put him down and big-up JB. I am just talking facts. I know the gaps aren't as big as this year possibly but just look at the fastest laps in Singapore, Lewis was seriously slower there than Button and the tyres in 2011, although they degraded a lot did not have these tiny operating windows that those do in 2012. Look at Vettel and Webber - some races Vettel has been no where in qualifying due to not being in the tyre operating window. So what im saying is that a 1 second gap last year is maybe comparable to a 2 second this year as things are exaggerated by the ultra sensitive tyres.

You mention Suzuka but Hamilton was on pole in the following race.

I was referring to races because you were talking about Jenson being 1.5 - 2 seconds slower than Lewis in the race at Canada 2012. He was not that much slower in qualifying and therefore I do not see how that is relevant to this particular discussion.

I thought it had long been established that Hamilton's problems last year had nothing to do with speed or the lack of it.

I don't think that sits right when he was lapping a second or more slower in races such as Singapore, Suzuka and India and then himself in interviews after being completely perplexed by his lack of speed. I know he had personal issues that effected his decisions but this didn't suddenly make him lap that much slower in the race? There was more to it than that.

All the races you mention - he finished comfortably in the points

OK, comfortably in the points in those races where he was poor in 2011 - well that's because the field was no where near as tight as this year, if it was, Lewis would have finished comfortably out of the points in some of those races, just as Jenson did in Canada.


All in all, what I was trying to do was say that JB's problems are being exaggerated by how close the field is and the tiny operating window of the tyres this year and that not so long ago he did dominate Lewis in several races, so I'd give him more time and I think some people are being too harsh on him. If he goes on like this for several more races then I'd be asking big questions.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The bottom line here is that at Monaco and Canada, Lewis was brushing every wall, including the wall of champions, as were Vettel and alonso, and others. Jenson wasnt, for whatever reason. The others finishing above him were more able to skim the walls. This year it means you end up outside the top 10.

Jenson can drive like that and unless he starts doing so he will not qualify well or finish in the top 10

As he is just the driver it must be down to the team to give him what he needs to drive like this. He is not a quali expert and so his race setup has to be the main priority. But he must feel comfortable to constantly skim walls etc

Maybe the team allow him too much leeway assuming he has built a team around him as Whitmarsh put it. However Jenson is just a driver and no driver leads development etc anymore. The team need to give him a setup that he can drive properly.

 

[Lewywo4]

One point I will say is about Hamilton's intelligence during the race. On Sunday he had the awareness to know that more or less Alonso could and would stay with him as long as Alonso was doing 2 stops, when Alonso wasn't maintaining pace Hamilton had the awareness to ask him team if Alonso was one stopping (of course McLaren were wrong). After the race Hamilton said when he realised Alonso wasn't staying close he was sure that he wasn't going to pit again.

no-F1At-please........another good example of Lewis's intelligence occurred between laps 22 & 24, while leading the race on sunday. Hamilton had the presence of mind to ask his race engineer:

Lewis: " Which is the weakest sector in which we can make improvements, and pull away from these guys? "

Engineer: " The third sector. "

That's using his head, and always thinking in ways to make himself go faster.

 

[Josh]

I'm pretty sure that's something every driver asks his race engineer. I'm not saying he isn't intelligent, he obviously is, almost every driver is, but it's not really anything special.

 

[Quintessentially]

tranquility2k9 - I'm sure you appreciate that fastest lap and lap times are two different things and the former doesn't always paint the true picture. Take Montreal for example where Vettel set the fastest lap which was almost 1.5s quicker than Hamilton when finishing 4th but we know why this happened. It is better to watch the whole race for a more informed assessment. This is not to say that Jenson didn't outperform Hamilton at times last year. It is just not a debate worth having because factually Hamilton is generally faster than Button over one lap on any tyre/circuit/condition..(insert any other convenient parameter). I will repeat again that his problems last year had very little to do with finding speed, field bunched together or not. When his head was right normal service was restored and he's never been lapped in a competitive McLaren contrary to your suggestion. As much as I have some sympathy for Jenson for some of the problems he's encountering at the moment, like the lack of running in Practice last weekend which he paid a heavy price for, you cannot say that he doesn't deserve some of the criticism he's getting. He is guilty of believing his own hype and for a very experienced driver he's not versatile at all. Compared to the way Hamilton was treated by the press last year when he was having his difficulties to the point that Whitmarsh sometimes inflamed the situation with unnecessary comments in the press, Jenson is getting an easy ride. McLaren are massaging his bruised ego and conveniently blaming it all on the car although behind the scenes I hope they are taking a tougher stance.

 

[KekeTheKing]

I'm pretty sure that's something every driver asks his race engineer

Then I wonder why we never hear those radio transmissions.

It seems to me that whether it's in Practice, Quali, or the Race, FOM plays a transmission from Lewis asking what sector he is losing out the most in. And this has gone on for several years.

Many drivers console themselves with the line that "I was giving her all she had, there was nothing left to find", when there is almost always a tenth or two out there somewhere.

 

[Josh]

And it seems to me that we hear Button telling his team about problems with his car every race but we don't hear this from another driver every weekend - funny that.
You know as well as I do that not every radio transmission gets broadcast and just because we don't hear them doesn't mean they don't exist - and I'm pretty sure I've heard other drivers ask the same question.

It's really not as special as you're trying to make it...

 

[KekeTheKing]

We have heard a host of drivers complain about one thing or another this year, including Lewis. In fact, these are the most common radio transmissions being played.

And I'm not trying to make anything sound special, but it's impossible not to notice a theme with Hamilton's radio chatter. In almost every meeting he is asking where to find time.

If this was a regular question asked by every other driver, then you'd have to wonder why FOM never, ever, plays these transmissions.

Once again, not special, just intriguing.

 

[f1fansp]

What was noticeable (though I don't suggest it's in any way unique) in Canada was the number of updates Lewis was getting on the gaps to the drivers around him. Looking on the McLaren website, I counted 24 updates to Lewis on either the gap to Alo/Vet, or his pace (purple/sector delta).
Perhaps this was in response to his "You should've kept me updated man" in Monaco. Clearly there's a balance - the well-aired "Don't talk to me when I'm racing", seemingly when he was overtaken by Web in Germany 2011.
Good to see they're adjusting that side of the communication to the needs.

 

[Viscount]

Quintessentially So because Hamilton was unfairly vilified by the press last year we should now do the same to Button since he had a few bad races?

Perhaps McLaren are blaming the car because the main problem is the car. Hamilton is generally faster in qualifying and they're similar in the race. Button has gone from front row starts, an early season win & podium to qualifying 1 second behind his teammate in the past 3 GPs and midfield race pace. That's fairly uncharacteristic for him & I doubt he's suddenly changed & lost his driving skills mid season. The only thing we definitely know that has changed since the start of the season is the car.

 

[Quintessentially]

Who are "we"? Fleet Street?

 

[Viscount]

Just general critics.

 

[RasputinLives]

We have heard a host of drivers complain about one thing or another this year, including Lewis. In fact, these are the most common radio transmissions being played.

And I'm not trying to make anything sound special, but it's impossible not to notice a theme with Hamilton's radio chatter. In almost every meeting he is asking where to find time.

If this was a regular question asked by every other driver, then you'd have to wonder why FOM never, ever, plays these transmissions.

Once again, not special, just intriguing.

On the same theme (although slightly off topic) we always hear Rob Smedley telling Massa which sectors he needs to be quicker in to match Fernando and even sometimes lines to take. We never hear anyone elses engineer telling them that but I'm sure it must happen.

On the same lines we always hear Vettel asking about fastest laps, Schumacher complaining about the driver in front and Alonso being bossy with his team. Its almost like FOM are trying to tell some sort of story

 

[Tacitus]

It's something i really wish we had complete access to. i wish i could follow the entire radio transmissions of a particular driver. All the teams get access to the and so do the pit lane reporters. i just wish it could be released online rather than only hearing FOM extracts.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

...we always hear Rob Smedley telling Massa which sectors he needs to be quicker in to match Fernando and even sometimes lines to take. We never hear anyone elses engineer telling them that but I'm sure it must happen.

But I do remember hearing Fisichella's engineer once saying, "Try and go faster, Fisi!" or something along those lines.

 

[Mezzer]

It's really not as special as you're trying to make it...

I agree, I don't think its particularly special, but it shows his head was properly in the game and not solely focused on driving. You can turn it on its head, of course, and point out that ideally McLaren should have been giving him the info proactively, e.g. "You're doing a great job, mate, sectors 1 and 2 are purple, sector 3 has a tenth to find ..."

Finally, I've always liked Lewis, I love the fact that he's a racer and that every now and then he pulls off moves that he - anyone - really should not be able to. The fact that he's got his head screwed on better this season, or appears to so far, as well as the fact that he seems just as capable of racing as ever when the car lets him, makes him a progressively far more lethal competitor. If McLaren can keep the car competitive, and he keeps his head straight, I think he's in with a great chance of an extremely well-deserved WDC that people won't be able to suggest that it was solely the car that got him there.

 

[Fenderman]

tranquility2k9

Taking just the first of your observations - regarding Lewis finishing so far behind Jenson at Singapore, you seem to have forgotten his coming together with fellow crash magnet of the season, Felipe Massa. It really isn't good enough to harp on about speed whilst ignoring other factors at play during races. If you look at Lewis's 2011 season his problems had more to do with the racing incidents in which he was involved, including the infamous Canada connection with Jenson.

Edit: Just checked on Japan. lo and behold The Ham had made it up to second in the first stint, got pushed bak to fifth in the pitstops and in the midst of all this who should he meet inconveniently to help bring out the safety car? Why Flippy of course!

Sorry, mate, no offence, but stat's never give you the complete picture you have to work with the context and the happenstance which requires reading more than just the numbers.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I would actually go as far as saying that Jenson has never ever beaten Lewis on track without Lewis having a clear and quantifiable issue outside pure driving ability and pace (If I am wrong I am sure someone will present the better argument)

Yes we could argue that crashes with Massa and penalties are a part of racing, but if we look at speed and racecraft Jenson has never outdriven his teammate Lewis when no acts of God or extraordinary incidents have been present.

Also to look at fastest laps or laptimes to compare the two is untenable in this era of tyre preservation

 

[Fenderman]

Why, stone me! What do I find when checking out my memory of India? Yup! Crash magnetism effect no.5 with none other than Flippy Massa. Strewth, that's three strikes and one is out. New evidence required tranquility2k9. I now feel like a total spoilsport for bringing all this up. Unfortunately, it is a necessary evil that I quite like facts as well as fiction. Again, sorry mate.