Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[Cookinflatsix]

@ what viscount just said

Glad to hear some reason and cold logic

So I think they would've learnt from that and being in a similar situation again with 2 competitive drivers who should be in contention for the title this year they might manage their drivers differently this time round.

So what has Whitmarsh done about trying to make having two no1s work better than in 2007?

restructuired the organisational process so that both drivers are sharing data and are under the central control of a head of strategy
instead of competing on strategy its all touchy feely share alike.
Noble intentions for sure if a little naive IMO

why? because the end results is confusion on changing 'on the fly' strategy and unexpected pit stops and rain etc etc

eg. strategist asks both drivers about conditions, LH says its tough but i can just manage if i really have to, Strategists ask JB who says I cant handle this as i need perfect conditions and i might crash

only 1 can pit at same time, it should be the lead driver LH

new info comes in suggesting that new tyres are 3 secs quicker, who does strategist pit first?, just doing his job properly

If they both had combative and competing strategists LHs would have had LH in first let JB dangle

Ok so thats a story I made up, would be nice if I could get genuine feedback without ridicule or childish comments

 

[Vortex]

Seems to be working better than in 2007 don’t ya think tho!

 

[RickD]

Rick

So heres your chance, Rick, JB has had better strategy options than LH this year so far can you disprove that?

Dunno which member you linked to there, but thats not me.

Why should I disprove it? I simply don't believe it has been the case and its only your bias that seems to be getting in the way of your objectivity here, so please PROVE it is the case and then I and others might listen to you.

for example, Lewis has said he needs to find out where the issues are and fix them, he didn't say that people were out to get him, so stop taking a quote and turning it on its head as you seem wont to do.

Which commentators have said there is a conspiracy at McLaren againt Lewis? Please point it out as back here in the real world, I think I must have missed it.

 

[Porceliamone]

@ porceliamone

What exactly are you talking about?

evidence for what?

Seriously? You don't understand what I said given the contents of your post? If that's the case there's really little hope for any meaningful engagement here. With that, I'll tip my hat to you and move on now.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Why should I disprove it? I simply don't believe it has been the case and its only your bias that seems to be getting in the way of your objectivity here, so please PROVE it is the case and then I and others might listen to you.

you dont need to disprove it, you dont have to listen to it you dont have to respond, my opinion is that for whatever reason LH and Jb get silly calls, and LH in particular is more afflicted

I put forward a string of possible reasons, including conspiracy which i have moved on from

you keep challenging me and throwing cheap insults and childish remarks but refuse to engage in meaningful discourse

if it bothers you so much that i have this opinion, either disprove it or disengage

he didn't say that people were out to get him

have I said people are out to get him in in my prevailing theory about why it appears to me that LH has had on balance worse service?

you are trying to change my opinion that he has had worse service on balance, but instead of provide evidence, you present your own opinion, fine have it, I wont ridicule you for having an opinion, I wont even discuss it with you further if you will allow that

@ porceliamone,

apologies if I am not clear, without your quoting the remarks its easy to get confused about which post and which part of the post you refer to

please dont run away

kindly provide just one statement and I shall endeavour to address it correctly and succinctly

 

[GeoffP]

Cookinflatsix

Am I reading this right - from your earlier post you feel that a discussion is around people learning from your opinion and taking it on-board as fact.

You feel you have nothing to learn from the counter arguement?

If so I really think I've hit the wall on this one!

 

[racecub]

and also help you communicate your beliefs better. Plus, you never know, if you bother to look at the stats and facts rather than just sticking to the fact that you're right and ner ner ner ner ner then you might discover something new that might change the way you think.

Isn't that why most of get involved in debates on forums?

I think Cook presents his belifs very clearly but they are not always countered by sound arguement. And the bit Ive highlighted is exactly what Cook has done, he has reviewed the facts and stats, refined his position and changed the way he thinks

 

[Cookinflatsix]

GeoffP

Not at all, I feel that a forum is for people to express opinions. According to the validity and wether it creates resonace with others a discussion might ensue, if it does the participants agree or some disagree, those that disagree then either disengae or challenge the opinion by producing an argument, this argument may be supported by selected facts

So I feel that my opinion on the JB LH conundrum can be discussed under that premise, I listen to anyone coming up with alternatives or new info or opinions, but what I refuse to do is ridicule the opinions of others or insult them by telling them their opinion is not worth bothering with and complete tosh without offering up any real input

If you notice, you put up your idea in a previous post, guess what, I 'liked' that post because you added something and I took it on board

so where did you get the idea that have nothing to learn from the counter argument?

infact, where is the counter argument exactly? that all is ok at Mclaren and so end of discusion? that McLaren have policies and management mandates in place to ensur the absolute equal treatment and opportunities for both drivers and this works perfectly all the time?

lets have a look at the counter argument please

 

[Brogan]

@ geoff

You need to remove the space between @ and geoff if you want to use the tagging feature.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Brogan

cheers!

 

[Hamberg]

@ geoff

that all is ok at Mclaren and so end of discusion? that McLaren have policies and management mandates in place to ensur the absolute equal treatment and opportunities for both drivers and this works perfectly all the time

lets have a look at the counter argument please

Here you go.

All is ok at Mclaren and so end of discusion. McLaren have policies and management mandates in place to ensure the absolute equal treatment and opportunities for both drivers and this works most of the time

 

[Cookinflatsix]

well done hamburg, no insults or snide remarks

I appreciate your position, I take it on board and I agree that it is a big possibility

however

I do not agree

So at this point we are able to both depart with heads held high and continue to watch F1 and form our own opinions

 

[Hamberg]

I don't need statistics or proof to tell me that LH has been disadvantaged on average but I can't provide them.

I know many others disagree with me

Fixed it for you.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But we are also entitled to not have to listen to the same opinions time and time again that have never been backed up with a smidgen of evidence other than you have chosen to think that's the case.

There is no evidence to show Button is being favoured. Until you provide that evidence I can safely say we very much know what you think. As a favour to you we will remember it so you don't need to go over old ground.

You're welcome

 

[Cookinflatsix]

@hamburg

ok so it wasnt as easy as both of us having differing opinions and moving on,

you prefer to discredit mine and at the same time throw in a touch of morality policing, and you are speaking for everyone?

Ok, I suspect even a stupid person would know the subtle difference between these two viewpoints, as we are all smart on here it must be that I havent been clear enough

position A) JB is being favoured, its on purpose and its a conspiracy cooked up in a seedy cafe in Woking

position B) The operational process at McLaren is geared towards managing the two drivers as one unit with two facets, instead of two competing units. This has lead to a situation where in the instances that the actual race deviates from pre programmed strategythe driver with special needs tends to get the more straightforward option as the other driver is less fussy about conditions and setup, unintentional but side effect is LH has disadvantage on balance in his struggle vs JB (the team win as they get more points)

So lets assume its position B, where is any evidence?

Radio transcripts
I have pushed position B for the last while after rejecting others, I am entitled to an opinion based on my observations, just observing this year alone I see more disadvantage for LH

Some, cling on to position A as my choice, maybe because its easier to argue against and ridicule, they refuse to believe position B is my choice although I have said so and will continue to say so to anyone who requests further clarification or reignites the debate ( I dont need to reignite it, as I have stated it clearly several times), and you telling me 'you and everyone else is sick' of it will not make me suddenly contrite and feel the need for public acceptance to change my carefully thought out and evolved opinion
If you and everyone else you represent are sick of hearing it, let it go, stop challenging it, get your own opinions and feel passionate about it, Life can be fun!

please refer to the post

so over to you hamburg, position B and a small pointer to my evidence

and incase you chose not to come back

 

[Lewywo4]

It seems to me that alot of controversy arises between Lewis and Jenson, when their pitstops occur. Any so-called controversy regarding info shraring between the two should be discarded, because all of the information is shared and put on the table for both drivers to analyze, during all de-briefs.

Interesting discussion and comments from both sides of the aisle, but....keep it coming Cook or CFS.....keep it coming!

 

[Cookinflatsix]

lewymp4

water off a ducks back,

Off topic - I am off to watch Barca spank Chavski

 

[ExtremeNinja]

have you seen my signature

Wow. You know that you are walking the thin line when each of your posts requires accompaniment of a disclaimer.

 

[Hamberg]

Radio transcripts prove B hmmm. Nope, no they don't.

As for the rest of your post why it's aimed at me I'm not sure. Anywho, it's not that you're arguing back at those reigniting the debate, it's that youve pretty much used the same argument everytime Button beats Hamilton. They both get to set their car up how they prefer, Button has been marginally more intuitive in race set up, Hamilton really doesn't like driving with a heavily fuelled car and he doesn't seem as comfortable on pirellis. They are both finding their place as team mates in a team when neither are precious but both are capable.

McLaren have always had a tendency to fuck things up, sometimes Lewis gets the brunt, sometimes Jenson. Shit happens.

But what I am seeing is Hamilton adopting some of Jenson's play the long game and Jenson is picking up on Hamiltons jfdi attitude when it comes to gaining positions.

Where are they? Top of the table with only two points in it. Bring it on I say and Mclaren sort out your goddam equipment!!

p.s. For tags to work you have to spell the users name correctly

 

[racecub]

Wow. You know that you are walking the thin line when each of your posts requires accompaniment of a disclaimer.

You truely are treading a MINEFIELD when a disclaimer is required with your posts.

 

[The Artist.....]

Radio transcripts prove B hmmm. Nope, no they don't.

Yep, you're absolutely right there! I mean, I can find no evidence in the radio transcripts that Hamilton had any issues with his tyres in Melbourne! If we believe radio transcripts as being complete, factual evidence, then you end up with egg on your face!

http://www.mclaren.com/2012/australian-gp/race?expand=1