It would indeed have been exciting had Hamilton not had that penalty. I still don't think that he would have got within ten seconds of Rosberg.
Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton
- Thread starter Brogan
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racecub
Champion Elect
Maybe not, but Mercedes wouldn't have been able to sit so pretty during that last stint with the luxury of a pitstop in hand if they needed it. Rosberg would have to have worked those worn tyres harder, would they have been forced to pit? Would the tyres have given up? We dont know but he would certainly have had to work a lot harder.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
As he also would have had to done, had Button not had his final pitstop problem.....
But he had the best overall package.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
that's is just not a civilised way to reply to another person who has not harmed you and has merely put forward his observation which is correct, why don't you disprove it instead of resort to ad hominem insults?
Did you not notice that LH caught up with JB anytime he was in clean air at the end, anyway it's obvious from Brogans lap time chart which I doubt you have liked at
Again the cheap shot of talking about conspiracy
Conspiracy was explored 40 pages ago, since then loads of other avenues have been explored but it's easy to keep bringing up conspiracy to get a rise isn't it?
Ok let's all try and agree on this and let it go :
Firstly has LH got the crappier service and strategy calls from the team on balance since JB arrived. If you say no then there is no point you continuing to respond to those who think so so please desist. ,
If however you agree, then what is the possible explanation? join the debate and put forward your opinion
Lots of possibilities, let's be imaginative, it's not as though we have a race to watch at present
And don't play the 'paranoid conspiracy card' as a blanket veto on the rights of members to express themselves on a thread created for that purpose
racecub
Champion Elect
Possibley. Though Button only lost six seconds in that stop. I know it was exemplified by coming out in traffic, but even so the loss wouldnt be as great as that of lewis who started 7th and lost enormous amounts through traffic after pitstops. Had Lewis started in 2nd Id hazzard he'd have been a lot closer to Rosberg at the end than Button starting in 6th, even if Buttonhadnt lost 6 seconds in the pits.
RickD
Pole Sitter
What, so you are saying LH has got better service and strategies than JB?!? Now i'm really confused by your viewpoint Cook.
As for the lap chart, where is it that Lewis was quicker in clean air exactly Cook? Jenson came out of the pits on lap 41 behind a train of cars, he finally cleared those cars on lap 51, whereby he was faster than Lewis until the end of the GP. So where exactly is rikitalls assesment of the last stint not complete tosh?
I think that the strategies for both Lewis and Jenson are fair, even when it is to the detriment of Jenson. What no-one on this thread has suggested so far (I'm pretty sure i've read it all and haven't seen it), is that each race one or the other has the favoured strategy and that they take turns to have the favoured strategy, as McLaren stated is their policy after the fiasco in 2007 if I remember correctly and i'm not going senile (always a possibility, but I don't think so in this case). Lewis was the one who didn't stick to that strategy in 2007 and therefore started the chain of events that is now infamous. That is simply a fact and was stated as such at the time (or at least a little while after when Ron had fallen on his sword).
Tranquility posted an excellent analysis quite a few pages back about the first two stints and how close Lewis and Jenson were in respect to each others times, but Jenson was still slightly faster after those two stints. The third stint was a bit all over the place for Lewis due to traffic and the last one is as above.
Don't play the wounded party please Cook as it does nothing for you and as far as conspiracy goes, you have all but stated your belief that there is one many times over without actually saying it, so you are being rather disingenious with your posts. You have also come very close to libel and slander, but are too clever to take the extra step, so again, stop with the wounded party posts.
So, to conclude, I neither agree nor disagree, I simply do not see that there is a problem with either driver being favoured as you so obviously do with your bias towards Lewis and the fact that if he is getting beaten by his team mate, then there must be some skull-duggery taking place behind closed doors and everyone is out to get him..
As for the lap chart, where is it that Lewis was quicker in clean air exactly Cook? Jenson came out of the pits on lap 41 behind a train of cars, he finally cleared those cars on lap 51, whereby he was faster than Lewis until the end of the GP. So where exactly is rikitalls assesment of the last stint not complete tosh?
I think that the strategies for both Lewis and Jenson are fair, even when it is to the detriment of Jenson. What no-one on this thread has suggested so far (I'm pretty sure i've read it all and haven't seen it), is that each race one or the other has the favoured strategy and that they take turns to have the favoured strategy, as McLaren stated is their policy after the fiasco in 2007 if I remember correctly and i'm not going senile (always a possibility, but I don't think so in this case). Lewis was the one who didn't stick to that strategy in 2007 and therefore started the chain of events that is now infamous. That is simply a fact and was stated as such at the time (or at least a little while after when Ron had fallen on his sword).
Tranquility posted an excellent analysis quite a few pages back about the first two stints and how close Lewis and Jenson were in respect to each others times, but Jenson was still slightly faster after those two stints. The third stint was a bit all over the place for Lewis due to traffic and the last one is as above.
Don't play the wounded party please Cook as it does nothing for you and as far as conspiracy goes, you have all but stated your belief that there is one many times over without actually saying it, so you are being rather disingenious with your posts. You have also come very close to libel and slander, but are too clever to take the extra step, so again, stop with the wounded party posts.
So, to conclude, I neither agree nor disagree, I simply do not see that there is a problem with either driver being favoured as you so obviously do with your bias towards Lewis and the fact that if he is getting beaten by his team mate, then there must be some skull-duggery taking place behind closed doors and everyone is out to get him..
Cookinflatsix
Banned
@ rickd
confused? read again, take a deep breath
alternating the better strategy each race? that would be a candidate for an explanation to why JB has had better service and strategies albeit a weak and untenable one, do you have any proof that this is the case?
LH finished right behind JB, he wasn't right behind him earlier in the race and so he caught up with him, traffic or no traffic we all know LH is generally quicker than JB so complete tosh needs a new toshiba
Libel AND slander? do you actually know what these are, if so please explain how one can commit both acts on a forum
my clever hinting at conspiracy? show me where the hint is in my more recent hypotheses about why JB seems to have had special consideration over LH
Skulduggery? big word indeed, so according to my skull diggin or whatever, who are the parties I hint are acting in concert to conspire against LH?
answer all this and I'm sure we can all be friends
confused? read again, take a deep breath
alternating the better strategy each race? that would be a candidate for an explanation to why JB has had better service and strategies albeit a weak and untenable one, do you have any proof that this is the case?
LH finished right behind JB, he wasn't right behind him earlier in the race and so he caught up with him, traffic or no traffic we all know LH is generally quicker than JB so complete tosh needs a new toshiba
Libel AND slander? do you actually know what these are, if so please explain how one can commit both acts on a forum
my clever hinting at conspiracy? show me where the hint is in my more recent hypotheses about why JB seems to have had special consideration over LH
Skulduggery? big word indeed, so according to my skull diggin or whatever, who are the parties I hint are acting in concert to conspire against LH?
answer all this and I'm sure we can all be friends
I think I lost the point about 4,633 posts ago, so ignore me if appropriate, but...
The protestation as I seem to read is:
- Lewis is faster than Jenson;
- Jenson is being given a better strategy and pit lane support to get him in front of Lewis;
- There is no conspiracy
Now in proving this we use selected data, obviously not the championship table, qualifying position or traffic impact because they can confuse the one true truth which is.... now let me see.... everyone's working to make Jenson win in an entirely indepedent and random way, but they're no good at it.
Have I got that right?
The protestation as I seem to read is:
- Lewis is faster than Jenson;
- Jenson is being given a better strategy and pit lane support to get him in front of Lewis;
- There is no conspiracy
Now in proving this we use selected data, obviously not the championship table, qualifying position or traffic impact because they can confuse the one true truth which is.... now let me see.... everyone's working to make Jenson win in an entirely indepedent and random way, but they're no good at it.
Have I got that right?
At the end of lap 1 Hamilton was 2 places and 1.496 seconds behind Button
At the end of lap 13 Hamilton was one place and 1.267 seconds behind Button.
At the end of lap 38 Hamilton was one place and 13.119 seconds behind Button.
At the end of the race Hamilton was one place and 5.386 seconds behind Button.
That is not an example of Hamilton being faster than Button in my book.
At the end of lap 13 Hamilton was one place and 1.267 seconds behind Button.
At the end of lap 38 Hamilton was one place and 13.119 seconds behind Button.
At the end of the race Hamilton was one place and 5.386 seconds behind Button.
That is not an example of Hamilton being faster than Button in my book.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
Actually, there was one thing that was quite interesting in China - Button seemed to be making a better job of getting overtakes done than Hamilton.... Certainly, Button was able to clear Perez, which Hamilton found a lot more difficult to do (Which was the cause of the 13.119 second gap between Button and Hamilton)... However, it is also true that Button was held up behind Vettel and Raikkonen - as he couldn'tget a run on Vettel whilst he was getting the DRS behind Raikkonen!
Hamilton's overtakes seemed to rely a lot more on opportunitism (Such as the Webber overtake) - but the impression I got was that Hamilton was held up more by cars than Button...
Hamilton's overtakes seemed to rely a lot more on opportunitism (Such as the Webber overtake) - but the impression I got was that Hamilton was held up more by cars than Button...
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
In response to cook's last post: I think the issue is that people dispute your prior: That is that Hamilton has had worse service than Button on the whole - certainly, I'm yet to see conclusive evidence to show that either driver has had better service, and I suspect that there are many others who have the same viewpoint as I do! As such, debates about what the cause of the apparent better service is moot for most people!
I would suggest that if you want to discuss reasons that "Hamilton is being disadvantaged", you should start by showing that, on the whole, there is statistically significant evidence that his service has been worse than that of Button. (And as such, needs to examine ALL races - not just a subset!)
However, I would suggest that Occam's razor is probably the most likely way of getting to a solution. Hamilton finished ahead of Button in 2010, suggesting that Hamilton performed better, on the whole, over the course of the 2010 season. Button finished ahead of Hamilton in 2011, suggesting that Button performed better, on the whole, over the course of the 2011 season.
I would also say that it is disingenous to state that "Hamilton is quicker than Button", as this is not always true! On the whole, over the course of the Australian GP, Button was faster than Hamilton, over the course of the Malaysian GP, Hamilton was faster, and over the course of the Chinese GP, there wasn't much between them! I would say that that suggests that actually, Hamilton and Button, are on the whole, about the same in terms of pace!
I would suggest that if you want to discuss reasons that "Hamilton is being disadvantaged", you should start by showing that, on the whole, there is statistically significant evidence that his service has been worse than that of Button. (And as such, needs to examine ALL races - not just a subset!)
However, I would suggest that Occam's razor is probably the most likely way of getting to a solution. Hamilton finished ahead of Button in 2010, suggesting that Hamilton performed better, on the whole, over the course of the 2010 season. Button finished ahead of Hamilton in 2011, suggesting that Button performed better, on the whole, over the course of the 2011 season.
I would also say that it is disingenous to state that "Hamilton is quicker than Button", as this is not always true! On the whole, over the course of the Australian GP, Button was faster than Hamilton, over the course of the Malaysian GP, Hamilton was faster, and over the course of the Chinese GP, there wasn't much between them! I would say that that suggests that actually, Hamilton and Button, are on the whole, about the same in terms of pace!
I think it is widely accepted that in terms of outright speed, especially over one lap, Hamilton is faster than Button. The quali record between both drivers speaks for itself and JB is yet to be on pole in a McLaren. But we know you need more than outright speed to succeed in F1. Case in point being Hamilton himself leading the championship despite not winning a single race.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Geoff, the part I highlighted does not fit with the next line, if it was to get JB ahead then it's a conspiracy of sorts
You are almost right, but please consider this;
2 drivers competing for the WC
Instead of compete on aspects such as strategy by having independent strategists for each driver allowed to focus on his chances, let's say there is one strategist only who collates all data and then strategises for the optimum outcome for the combined drivers and therefore the team
Let's then say that the intention of this approach is to hsrmonise and optimise the teams chances of a WDC and a WCC
Let's then say that one driver is more delicate and needs perfect conditions to excell and the other can get the best out of a tractor on ice and can warm up tyres and drive faster over a lap when required
Can you see a situation where one driver might get certain strategies and the other alternatives with the distribution not 50/50
Would this be a conspiracy? Or would it be an explanation for a pattern that many different observers point to increasingly?
even I don't think (anymore) that Whitmarsh is so mad to be trying to nobble LH even if he prefers JB and that's not a given
So unless anyone comes up with anything better I will go with this notion till info comes in to force a reappraisal
In the last part of the race, yes. And that's where this started, riskitall said LH was faster in the last part so thanks for the stats. Btw don't bother with wheeling out traffic stats etc as there is enough evidence to render calling riskitalls observation 'complete tosh that one cannot even be bothered with' as uncalled for and bordering on vindictive
Till the next info comes to light in the JB vs LH connundrum I will withdraw from this fascinating and emotive thread and go dig for skulls elsewhere
Cook, now that sounds more like it.
But I think all McLaren are trying to do is positive.
There were two points I came away from my watching of the China GP
Firstly, after Lewis came back on to the track his radio message told him what tyres they had fitted to his car. This surprised me and made me realise how much Lewis is happy to step back from the tactics.
Secondly, at the last pit stop (I think), when they both ended up back in the train, I felt Lewis was given the preferable stop despite being behind. Now, after the stops I realised that Jenson would have come out in front of the train had he not had a problem, but the timing of Lewis' stop kept him in front of at least another one or two cars.
So I agree McLaren are basing their tactics on their driver's perceived strengths (again I think the views of these strengths are developing), but I only think it is positive and WCC focused - WDC may start later in the season.
But I think all McLaren are trying to do is positive.
There were two points I came away from my watching of the China GP
Firstly, after Lewis came back on to the track his radio message told him what tyres they had fitted to his car. This surprised me and made me realise how much Lewis is happy to step back from the tactics.
Secondly, at the last pit stop (I think), when they both ended up back in the train, I felt Lewis was given the preferable stop despite being behind. Now, after the stops I realised that Jenson would have come out in front of the train had he not had a problem, but the timing of Lewis' stop kept him in front of at least another one or two cars.
So I agree McLaren are basing their tactics on their driver's perceived strengths (again I think the views of these strengths are developing), but I only think it is positive and WCC focused - WDC may start later in the season.
RickD
Pole Sitter
Read again, you still don't make any sense. I do not think either driver has got a better/worse service, so your point is, as per usual, moot.
What proof would satisfy you Cook, the same kind of 'proof' you produce when asked? I'm sure i've already done better than that.
Is he? Maybe over one lap, but I wouldn't take it as fact over a GP distance. Traffic is not a moot point as you well know and you are once again being disingenious. Traffic is a major factor to lap times, funnily enough, Jenson was faster than Lewis when both were in clean air on the last stint.
I can't be bothered to go back in this thread and find your suggestions about Martin Whitmarsh. Your rather pathetic last comment doesn't really deserve a reply, but i'm feeling generous, so will give you a clue about what you've already typed.
What was it you said earlier in this thread about a Martin Whitmarsh's comments about his drivers?
Cookinflatsix
Banned
As its rude to ignore human beings I will attempt to reply to the only segment of your post that isnt pointless blethering
The operative word here rick is EARLIER
Earlier, my speculations as to the reasons to explain my own and others observations about Mclaren strategic idiocies have gone in every single direction my logical and intuitive brain cells have been able to explore, as more info has come out
So I have looked at;
conspiracies where LH is handicapped to allow JB to gain the other hand
The team preferring JB as the face of the team
The personal feelings of the boss, Whitmarsh towards both drivers
The attitude of the drivers towards the team members
Martins Button vs Rons Lewis
JB commited to new contract, maybe LH is leaving and the team know already
and many more, however I have considered all these and have rejected them all and have stopped touting them, why?
because at this point and with more info than I had before other avenues have emerged as much more likely, in fact the most recent (the last 6 pages or so) is my current supposition, why? cos it feels right and passes every test
So for you to constantly point to an old suggestion that particularly upset you for whatever reason as justification to whip up the 'paranoid irrational tin foil hatism' card is an indication of a deep issue not with me but with you
so Rick for the last time this is what i currently believe with the most upto date info I can find
what is your opinion friend?
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