Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[Senna's_right_foot]

I'm not saying this exactly characterises the camps, but I would say that almost everyone commenting on these threads have some characteristics relating to one camp or the other.

I'd say you'd do well to debate each argument from each person on it's own merits instead of tarring people with the same brush because they 'like' a certain driver. Not everyone is subjective all of the time. I think that's half the problem on this thread to be honest.

 

[FB]

I think there is the "anyone but Hamilton" brigade as well Mr Artist and these are not necessarily Jenson Button fans. And this group can be as trenchant and obnoxious as the pro-Hamilton lobby (yes, I find both camps obnoxious, live with it )

 

[Road of Bones]

Cookin:
I have read the entire thread actually (as you do when you're off-work and have a spare 8 hours to kill...)!
My irritation at the cries of "conspiracy" stems from the fact that none of those alluding to such a thing can provide a shred of evidence that it is occurring within McLaren- all we are subjected to is a stream of suppositions from the Hamiltonian side of the fan-fence that because he isn't waltzing off into the distance every weekend in a Vettel-esque manner, then his team must be working against him somehow, either through favouritism of his teammate, or direct sabotage.
You are very good at playing the barrack-room lawyer, and highlighting the slightest inconsistencies with anyone's rebuttals, but when all is said and done, you spend more time nit-picking and fire-stoking on this thread, than actually allowing anyone to engage in meaningful debate with you. You have several times suggested that people should "beat you with a more powerful argument", but when someone actually attempts to do so, you resort to the same tactics of deflection, negation, nit-pickery and then the points get so lost in the fog of the discourse that we end up constantly retreading the same tired ground over and over again, and never get anywhere.
That's why I find it tiresome- it's like shaking your fist at the sky when it's raining: it serves no purpose, and you still get wet.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I think, on the whole, this argument can be summarised by the following 2 camps:

Do we ignore those that don't fit into your mold or do we try and ram them in there with brute force?

 

[FB]

or do we try and ram them in there with brute force?

What ever floats your boat sweetie

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Ooo errr. You've got me all a flutter.

 

[The Artist.....]

FB, I would agree with you... I think everyone needs to appreciate that both Hamilton and Button are exceptionally fast drivers - and the likelihood is that both drivers are getting the same equipment, and a perfectly fair shot at each race. Yes McLaren may occasionally (or more than occasionally) make a mess of things, but this occurs for both drivers... Is this a new phenomenon? Certainly not! Look at 1998 with Hakkinen in Melbourne! In fact, 1998 and 1999 were lessons on how to try and throw away a championship, even with a massive car advantage (I think in 1998 they were 2 seconds a lap faster than anyone else - or something like that anyway!) - This has been something that has been within the McLaren organisation for many years (Even in 1976, James Hunt never trusted their pit - boards!)

 

[Hamberg]

TAFKA, As a Hamilton fan that has been watching the sport since the early 90's I find your comparison of the two groups quite offensive.

I think there is the "anyone but Hamilton" brigade as well Mr Artist and these are not necessarily Jenson Button fans. And this group can be as trenchant and obnoxious as the pro-Hamilton lobby (yes, I find both camps obnoxious, live with it)

Agreed.

 

[The Artist.....]

Apologies Hamberg - I realise that what I made was a gross generalisation (And I wasn't trying to characterise anyone as having all of those characteristics) - I was also not trying to say that Hamilton fans were necessarily new to the sport, but that often fans of Button have followed his career through thick and thin (There would have to be something that made them fans whilst he was toiling at Honda!) - which meant that they weren't surprised to see him proving to be faster than many expected. I would also agree with FB that there is an "Anyone but Hamilton brigade"... - and yes they can be obnoxious as well!

 

[Hamberg]

It was the inference that Button fans are knowledgable and that Hamilton fans are irrational that irritated me There are probably two members on here that firmy fit your Hamilton fan category and plenty of other Hamilton fans that share your frustrations with said members, including myself.

I think it's easier, rather than trying to convince certain people that certain theories are ill founded, to accept that certain people are not going to alter their position. All they are achieving is creating an ABH camp.

 

[The Artist.....]

Apologies again Hamberg! That wasn't meant as a general point! (And certainly wasn't focussed at postings such as your own!

 

[Hamberg]

NP

 

[The Pits]

I think there are three camps, those who are at either end of the spectrum, and those who fall at varying parts along the spectrum. Oh, and those who don't give a toss either way. So that's four camps.

It is an emotive subject, with the possibility that a posters intention can be misunderstood, which, coupled with the occasional instance of playing the man and not the ball lead to the inevitable.

Everyone has an opinion. The purpose of this thread is debate, not argument.

For what it is worth, my opinion is that as the focus of many is on Lewis, and discrepancy with his strategies will be spotted, therefore the likelihood of an error being picked up is far greater. That said, I think that there are issues with McLaren strategy as I have stated earlier, but not being in possession of all the details, I am unable to provide a substantive proof of this.

One thing to note however, the issues with Jenson in qualifying was spotted and mentioned by no one until well after the race on Sunday, when I posted about it. Would it have been mentioned earlier if Lewis had been sent out unnecessarily on options in q1? I think so, which I think is indicative of some of the reason for this debate.

 

[Hamberg]

One thing to note however, the issues with Jenson in qualifying was spotted and mentioned by no one until well after the race on Sunday, when I posted about it. Would it have been mentioned earlier if Lewis had been sent out unnecessarily on options in q1? I think so, which I think is indicative of some of the reason for this debate.

Sorry for going over old ground (as in the Whitmarsh loves Jenson / Hamilton misused the word 'proud' blah blah I missed it ) but what issues?

 

[Vortex]

What id like to know is why aren’t the people who questioned and criticised Mclaren for stopping Button first when he was behind Hamilton in the previous races questioning and criticising Mclaren for stopping Hamilton when he was behind Button at the last race?

I means fairs fair, same rule applies for both drivers right?

 

[The Pits]

Jenson was sent out on a fresh set of soft tyres in Q1, he did an out lap, and an aborted flying lap, despite setting a time on the hard tyres which was good enough for Q2. His time was just quicker than Lewis, who was not sent out again. This meant that for Q3 he only had one fresh set, and hence one run, which was made after the track had cooled off. Without that he may have been able to go out early in Q3 on fresh tyres and improved on his 6th fastest time. He has been slower than Lewis this season by .15 of a second in both races, and way off that in China, people just seem to accept that, and not worry about the issues, which is of an ilk to Lewis in Malaysia last year.

 

[Hamberg]

The lap Lewis got his time on were on scrubbed options though werent they? And he had to start the race on them.

 

[The Pits]

Yes they were, but he had the spare tyres available to be able to go out at the start of Q3. All the quick times were set at the start, Nico, Michael etc were all unable to improve later on. Had Jenson not used the extra set in Q1, he may have gone out at the start of Q3, and set a better time. The use of the soft tyres in Q1 put him on the back foot, as we have seen a few times before.

 

[Hamberg]

I'm obviously being stupid here, why couldn't Jenson have done the same and set a time in used options the same way Hamilton did? Hamilton also went out on a fresh set and aborted in Q3 in the same manner as Buttons Q1?

 

[Josh]

Jenson set his only time later in the session because they were changiing his setup on the car. The track cooled down and was not as quick as it was at the start of the session, when Nico, Lewis etc set their times.