Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[The Pits]

I guess for the same reasons that the top teams do not usually send drivers out in q1 on the option tyres. Keeping as little quali mileage on the tyres is best for the race. Traditionally, the best times are set on fresh rubber at the last knockings of q3, having already used an extra set of sorts by q3, I would guess that in order to maintain tyres for the race the decision was taken to not run early in q3. He could have, but then he would also have gone out again later, and he would have had an extra run on soft tyres than all the other drivers. In hindsight, maybe he would have got away with it, but generally strategy would indicate that it is a disadvantage to use a set of options in q1.

 

[Hamberg]

But you've said yourself that the tyres weren't put through the same strain as a full flying lap as he aborted. I'm not convinced this was an issue as such rather than really bad luck given 9/10 times the track improves.
At the end of the day, he had a used set, like Hamilton, that he could have gone out on first and got a banker lap in. Maybe it was due, as Josh said, to Button making setup changes.

 

[The Pits]

But they also use the soft tyres in fp3, do they not?

Standard practice for a top team is prime in q1, scrubbed option then fresh option in q2, same in q3. Meaning that for the race, your strategy is not tyre limited, and the most each tyre has is one cycle before the race. Had he gone out at the start of q3 with scrubbed options, he would have had 5 runs on options to every one else's 4, clearly not ideal. This would usually allow a fair chance of a good lap, as conditions generally get better through the sessions, the fact that the conditions changed is the cause of the slower than expected lap, the use of tyres explains why the strategy was less than optimal in the end.

If it was no disadvantage, teams would surely just all run in all qualifying sessions on option tyres, no?

 

[Viscount]

From this week's McLaren radio transcripts, I think both Hamilton and Button were supposed to go out again at the end of Q1 on options but as Jenson left the pits they were adjusting Lewis' front wing and soon realised that their times were good enough and they didn't need to go out so they kept Lewis in but it was too late for Jenson, who didn't sound too happy about it afterwards.

http://www.mclaren.com/2012/chinese-gp/qualifying?expand=1

(After their first run in Q1):
Pit » HAM: "Just in case we have to go out again in Q1 on the option tyre, what would you like us to change on the car?"
Hamilton: "Half a hole of front wing."
Pit » BUT: "MAS is out on the option tyre at the moment. He's just set two purple sectors, so we might have to run again."
(Button leaves the pits)
Pit » BUT: "The car behind is PER. He's just started a timed lap."
Lewis switches off his engine, he doesn't leave the garage after all.
Pit » HAM: "Some last minute information revealed that we don't have to go out again. VET and SCH stayed in the pits."
Pit » HAM: "We're okay, we will be through."
Button: "Did you not realise that Lewis wasn't going to go?"
Pit » BUT: "He had his engine fired, he was going to go."

In Q2 Hamilton only did an out lap on his 2nd run as his first run was good enough so he used those same tyres for his first flying lap in Q3. Jenson on the other hand did 2 full runs in Q2 and the team asked him if he could use the tyres from his 2nd run in Q2 for a flying lap at the start of Q3, but Jenson declined.

(Both cars out on their 2nd run in Q2):
Pit » HAM: "You're going to be okay. Box this lap, save the tyres."
Pit » BUT: "Keep pushing, Jenson, keep pushing."
Pit » HAM: "These tyres stay on. They've just done an out-lap, so I suggest we use them for our first run in Q3. That leaves a fresh set for the end."
Pit » BUT: "You're P9, Jenson. You're through."
Pit » BUT: "Do you think we can run this set of tyres again at the start of Q3?"
Button: "I don't think we should."

 

[Hamberg]

I guess viscounts transcript provides all the answers we need. Button certainly felt disadvantaged (to Hamilton) and because of what you've explained pits, didn't feel the banker run on used options in q3 was an option.
So by sending Jenson out first in Q1 Hamiltons crew were able to have a little bit more time therefore knowledge, that proved invaluable to him not having to complete that run.

 

[tranquility2k9]

In simple terms Jenson went out in Q1 when Lewis didn't. Jenson then had to go out in Q2 because his first lap wasn't fast enough and he'd of been out of the top ten if he hadn't set a faster time whereas Lewis went out as precaution but didn't end up setting a fast lap. I suppose if this was the other way round and Hamilton would have got sent out to do a lap in Q1 when he was ahead of Jenson on the time sheets and Jenson stayed in there would be huge conspiracy calls.

I have just flicked through the last 2 or 3 pages of this thread and think it's just kind of getting ridiculous. Can everyone seriously please stop talking up all this conspiracy rubbish and focus on the actual racing. Lewis and Jenson have a very competative but healthy rivarily at the moment - it is something for F1 fans to really enjoy, not moan about. Yesterday I took the time to analyse the respective lap times of them both during the Chinese Grand Prix when they were in clean air. Admittedly, this was primarly as Ted Kravitz had said Lewis was no where on lap time in the race which I immeditately knew was wrong and wanted to factually prove. But what it showed is that on race pace there's generally nothing between them at this point in time. Next time I won't bother posting what I thought was rather "interesting" informaton as I don't think the post had a single reply because everyone was too interested in arguing as to whether McLaren are screwing over Hamilton. Jesus...

I myself am a Hamilton fan and I have got annoyed at McLaren a few times in the recent past for their strategies and cock-ups with Lewis in particular, but I think it is just coincidence and I have very rarely even gone anywhere near thinking there is some huge conspiracy going on. I think they have some inter-team rules that need thinking over because they are not consistent. But I mean Jenson had 2 or 3 things happen at China that were no different to the things that some people are saying were a conspiracy against Hamilton in previous races. I think starting this thread is great because the anatomy of the 2 drivers at McLaren deserves its own thread. But, there are enough things to talk about without needing to start making up stories that would make a nice entry on the front page of the daily mail. The racing this year has been brilliant so far and the season looks like it could be a classic. Lets just enjoy it huh?

 

[racecub]

Tranquiility I thought your post with the laptimes was excellent. I gave it a 'like' but didnt comment on it because I thought it said it all.
Im also tired of this conspiracy talk...which was what I said in the last post I made a few pages back. A conspiracy requires more than one person to conspire for a particular outcome, it is also a word that has somewhat unpleasant overtones, implying underhandedness. No one as far as I know has suggested this.Are the people who talk of conspiracy saying its the mechanics and engineers that are conspiring? Or does this conspiracy come right from the top?Why would Whitmarsh conspire to give better treatment to one of his drivers? There are no rules about team orders, if Whitmarsh wanted to run a one/two he wouldnt need to conspire, its perfectly legal. I think Tranquility touched on the direction of my thoughts when he said Mclaren have some intra team rules that are not consistant. Ive thought long and hard about this and I have some similar ideas as to why things are panning out as they are, non involving conspiracy or malice. But Im not going to post them for fear of being labelled, pigeon-holed ot just name called. Im going to try to keep off this thread.

 

[FB]

Might I suggest that if people want to avoid talk of a conspiracy that they don't intimate that such a thing is going on a Mclaren as, inevitably, it will engender a response from those who simply don't see such things . I'm not suggesting that all Hammy fans here have suggested it but that is certainly the impression I have got from some contributors. Certainly call into question Mclaren tactics, strategies or capabilities but don't suggest that it is as a result of some dark pattern dreamt up in smoked filled rooms in Woking.

 

[RasputinLives]

Tranquiility I thought your post with the laptimes was excellent. I gave it a 'like' but didnt comment on it because I thought it said it all.
Im also tired of this conspiracy talk...which was what I said in the last post I made a few pages back. A conspiracy requires more than one person to conspire for a particular outcome, it is also a word that has somewhat unpleasant overtones, implying underhandedness. No one as far as I know has suggested this.Are the people who talk of conspiracy saying its the mechanics and engineers that are conspiring? Or does this conspiracy come right from the top?Why would Whitmarsh conspire to give better treatment to one of his drivers? There are no rules about team orders, if Whitmarsh wanted to run a one/two he wouldnt need to conspire, its perfectly legal. I think Tranquility touched on the direction of my thoughts when he said Mclaren have some intra team rules that are not consistant. Ive thought long and hard about this and I have some similar ideas as to why things are panning out as they are, non involving conspiracy or malice. But Im not going to post them for fear of being labelled, pigeon-holed ot just name called. Im going to try to keep off this thread.

You get a like for that post racecub and usually this is a subject me and you don't agree on. You only have to look at some of the posts when Hamilton's gearbox change was announced to know that unfourtunatly not everyone can think as impartially as you. Reading between the lines on some they are but just enjoy stiring the pot.

On the subject of Jenson and Lewis. They've now had 41 races as team-mates. In 10 of these races one or the other of them has retired. Lewis has been in front in 18 of the Grand Prix and Jenson the other 13. So Lewis has it on the stats but lets face it since the start of 2010 there has really been nothing between these two

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Certainly call into question Mclaren tactics, strategies or capabilities but don't suggest that it is as a result of some dark pattern dreamt up in smoked filled rooms in Woking.

Who has suggested that it is a result of something dreamt up in Woking recently? I think this could clear up a mnisubderstanding

 

[FB]

To quote Lionel Hutz in the Simpsons: "There's Hearsay and Conjecture. They're kinds of evidence"

I shall refrain from commenting in this thread henceforth and look at it, with a heavy heart, as part of my moderator duties.

 

[riskitall]

Yes they were, but he had the spare tyres available to be able to go out at the start of Q3. All the quick times were set at the start, Nico, Michael etc were all unable to improve later on. Had Jenson not used the extra set in Q1, he may have gone out at the start of Q3, and set a better time. The use of the soft tyres in Q1 put him on the back foot, as we have seen a few times before.

but when lewis went out for his second run behind button,lewis was still a few tenths quicker than jenson before he abandoned his lap,but still wasnt quick enough to beat his best laptime.
also in the race pitting jenson first would have put him in the traffic lewis ended up in after his first pit.so pitting lewis second would have put lewis in a better position than jenson.that would have been unfair because button was ahead of lewis.
see its not all about who pits first,sometimes its about will pitting the lead driver first help him more or less.

 

[riskitall]

But I mean Jenson had 2 or 3 things happen at China that were no different to the things that some people are saying were a conspiracy against Hamilton in previous races. I think starting this thread is great because the anatomy of the 2 drivers at McLaren deserves its own thread. But, there are enough things to talk about without needing to start making up stories that would make a nice entry on the front page of the daily mail. The racing this year has been brilliant so far and the season looks like it could be a classic. Lets just enjoy it huh?

no jenson was struggling even in practice to feel comfortable with the car.
then in quali he was still struggling,hence the reason why he went out 1 more time than lewis.
lewis on the other hand looked good in practice and quali,so he had alot more confidence than button.
so it wasnt like button was looking good,but for some strange reason they kept him in the garage for too long.
also i thought button made all his own calls?if this is the case he should have told his team he wants to go out when lewis does.

i also find it strange that ppl will say lewis was favoured over alonso because of ron,or vettel was favoured over mark etc.
but when ppl say maybe whitmarsh has a softer spot for button,and they think that could play a part at times,ppl say your just paranoid.
also theres a difference between a genuine mistake,and it happening on purpose.
you see mistakes will happen sometimes,thats fine.but when the same things keep happening consistently,then it gets suspicious.

anyway just watch and see what happen as the season develops.

 

[The Artist.....]

also in the race pitting jenson first would have put him in the traffic lewis ended up in after his first pit.

That's not actually necessarily true. - since Button was 1.5 seconds ahead of Hamilton on the track... it is perfectly possible that had Button pitted first he would have cleared the traffic! It's again a case of "what ifs?" What is even more likely is that if Hamilton had stayed out an extra lap, then Webber would have cleared him at the first stop! (But again that's a what if situation!)

 

[Josh]

so it wasnt like button was looking good,but for some strange reason they kept him in the garage for too long.

They were changing the setup on his car. That's the reason he was in the garage for such a long time in Q3.

 

[Slyboogy]

What goes around comes right back around....

 

[riskitall]

You get a like for that post racecub and usually this is a subject me and you don't agree on. You only have to look at some of the posts when Hamilton's gearbox change was announced to know that unfourtunatly not everyone can think as impartially as you. Reading between the lines on some they are but just enjoy stiring the pot.

On the subject of Jenson and Lewis. They've now had 41 races as team-mates. In 10 of these races one or the other of them has retired. Lewis has been in front in 18 of the Grand Prix and Jenson the other 13. So Lewis has it on the stats but lets face it since the start of 2010 there has really been nothing between these two

since 2011.in 2010 lewis got 4 dnfs,jenson 2 and lewis still ended up with 26 more points.
and i think in 5 out of 6 of those dnfs between them lewis was ahead of button in the race.
also ofcourse lewis outqualified button most of the time.
but in 2011 these new tyres came into the sport and that imo has flattered jenson,because he hasnt really had to change his style to make them work.he can still drive the way he wants on them.
lewis on the other hand tried to drive the way he did on the other tyres and it didnt work for him on these new tyres.
add to that the fact he kept making stupid mistakes helped button massively.

now this season lewis is still trying to understand these new tyres,and these new tyres do not allow him to show his true pace in races.
in other words he needs to drive more carefully and slowly to make them work for him.
we are seeing that in the races.before lewis could push hard for lap after lap after lap.
now he has to pace himself,to make the tyres last,so he cannot drive the way he used to,which is the reason why his style is different this season.theres no way button has all of a sudden become as quick as lewis,lewis has just got slower.
in china lewis pace was very good,which is why starting in 7th cost him a better result imo.
also i noticed in the last part of the race lewis was catching jenson,he was about 6 or 7 tenths quicker a lap.unfortunatly he got held up by vettel which allowed jenson to extend his lead over him.
but lewis still isnt able to show his true pace on these tyres,but he's getting better at it race after race.

 

[RasputinLives]

in 2010 lewis got 4 dnfs,jenson 2 and lewis still ended up with 26 more points.

It was 3 to 2 actually and 26 points is just over a race victory so not masses is it?

but in 2011 these new tyres came into the sport and that imo has flattered jenson,because he hasnt really had to change his style to make them work.he can still drive the way he wants on them.
lewis on the other hand tried to drive the way he did on the other tyres and it didnt work for him on these new tyres.
add to that the fact he kept making stupid mistakes helped button massively.

This is a theory I've heard before and a lot of people buy into it but I'm not sure I do. It falls down on 2 points for me.

1) Mclaren (and our own CTA analysis boys) claim the tyre wear between the two is not that much different and that in reality neither are their driving styles

2) You have no direct comparrision to show this. In the 2 season Hamilton was in his title challenging Mclaren Jenson was in the awful earth car and when Jenson had his Brawn Lewis was in the Mclaren Shopping Trolly so your stating everything on one season where the 2 drivers only finished a race victory apart seems a little slim to me

My point still stands that there is not much between the 2 drivers and never has been. Even in this 2010 season where Lewis supposedly had the tyres he wanted they were pretty level pegging - Apart form his disastorous race in Korea Jenson was only ever a few places behing Lewis and roughly on the same pace.

I think they are and always have been fairly evenly matched.

 

[RickD]

also i noticed in the last part of the race lewis was catching jenson,he was about 6 or 7 tenths quicker a lap.unfortunatly he got held up by vettel which allowed jenson to extend his lead over him.
but lewis still isnt able to show his true pace on these tyres,but he's getting better at it race after race.

I won't even bother with the first part of your post as it is complete and utter tosh..

As for the above, Jenson was stuck behind Vettel and Raikonnen for those laps that Lewis was 6 or 7 tenths quicker per lap, therefore I will also say the last part of your post is complete tosh. Please stop trrying so hard to make the facts fit your hypothesis as you are failing miserably.

The lap chart Brogan posted shows how close the two were in the GP, it also shows how the last botched pitstop affected Jenson's race quite badly and meant there was no chance of him trying to push Rosberg in the final few laps.

Jenson got to the position in the race he did through merit and through a superb start to the GP. As no one else has mention it, it really looks like McLaren have improved their starts, yes, thats for both cars, not just Jenson, Lewis' start was just as good, but he went for the inside whaere he was always going to get blocked, although he handled it superbly. Jensons drive around the outside to 3rd was sublime and really put him in the position whereby he had a chance to win, he had that chance all the way up until that final pit-stop.

What China shows is that there is definitely no conspiracy at McLaren, as I stated about 20-odd pages ago..

 

[racecub]

I wasnt going to reply to this thread, and I still wont put forward my thoughts on the situation at McLaren, but when I see a posters contribution called "complete and utter tosh" , it makes me angry. Riskitall is entitled to his hypothesis, disagree with it by all means but dont be rude to him.
You've mentionmed Jenson's sublime driving at the start and him being in the position on merit. He did indeed have a good start, he made up two places the same as Lewis. But he was gifted a grid place by Lewis' demotion, and Lewis lost 5. So getting to the position by merit isnt quite the whole story. He was lucky Lewis had a gearbox failure.

And on the conspiracy at McLaren....we know theres not