Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[Cookinflatsix]

Saying that Button is still making the better strategy calls and this is where the problems are for Hamilton.

There is no evidence that JB has made strategic calls that have worked more than half of the few times he has truly made a call, apart from that he goes with what the team suggest and has even berated them for the wrong call

If LH had a team of competent strategists with his interests at heart, say in a Ross Brawn operation then it would truly be a formidable team

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Uh, wasn't it Lewis who missed his slot? Unless you're talking about a different slot?

A different slot Josh

A pitstop slot, JB was leading and meant to pit, he 'forgot' and that meant LH had to go around an extra lap in tyres that had dropped of the cliff in that lap - this was last year

Missing his mark in the pit by a few inches would cost hardly anytime compared to the other issues encountered whilst in the McLaren pit that race

 

[Josh]

Ah, I thought you were talking about missing his marks. Thanks for clarifying

 

[Jen]

Hi Jen,

Welcome back

How can anyone forget LH? From the transcripts it looks to me as though the team are desperate to please Button and involve him in the decision making, at the same time it seems that LH gets whatever is left

That's what those transcripts say to me

When we look at the transcripts in context with last year a pattern seems to emerge, LH left out an extra lap to accommodate JB who missed his slot plus other things. What's the explanation I think only McLaren know

Some have suggested that it's pure incompetence from the team, others that LH might already have agreed to leave the team

it doesn't have to be the team sabotaging one driver, just a team infatuated with one driver and leaving the other to twist in the wind

Just my opinion and observation Jen

Opinion and observation are very subjective, but no the less valid and we are all entitled to such.

The important question is WHY would McLaren want to scupper the chances of one of their drivers in preference to the other - if you can answer that logically and coherently then I might listen.

Teams are after the WCC, if they get the WDC as well, great. If they are constantly denying Lewis the chance to fight for a haul of points then they are buggering their own chances of securing WCC, surely?

 

[Jen]

Was that particularly hilarious?

 

[racecub]

Was that particularly hilarious?

Not particularly I guess. Just slightly amuzing. I mean the fact the topic is found tiresome and yet people keep coming on the thread, if only to say its tiresome.Just tickled me.

 

[Incubus]

Was that particularly hilarious?

Not particularly I guess. Just slightly amuzing..

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Now THAT is quite funny.

 

[Bullet190]

The fact that Button's strategy is still one step ahead of Hamilton's doesn't necessarily mean it's all down to the driver. I agree that the calls and info. are a team effort, where exactly the good decisions are coming from is difficult to say.
The point I was trying to make though is that in the past Hamilton could make up the difference with pure speed, that margin seems a lot smaller this year.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The important question is WHY would McLaren want to scupper the chances of one of their drivers in preference to the other - if you can answer that logically and coherently then I might listen.

Teams are after the WCC, if they get the WDC as well, great. If they are constantly denying Lewis the chance to fight for a haul of points then they are buggering their own chances of securing WCC, surely?

I don't think they set out to scupper any driver or their own chances of anything, I think handicapping a great and capable driver is a by product, an inconvenient side effect. They have lost sight of how to manage two top drivers, after the Ron era they probably set out to be more friendly etc and avoid the old problems and clashes
Someone maybe had a bright idea to take two opposite driver types and merge them into some optimal generic car setup, whoever had the bright idea then discovered that racers are humans and have egos, instead of just bring products that can be optimised

So instead of the scientifically interesting goal of a perfect car suiting both drivers we have a team that centralised data for two different drivers and guess what, one driver has imposed his own personality and requirements on the process leading to a team working hard to satisfy him
at the detriment of the other more flexible and obedient driver who has grown up in the team and trusts them completely

So IMMHO I don't think McLaren are out to nobble their protege, it's more that a chain of events has left them helpless as far as supporting two opposite types, starting with trying to create some harmonious car set up and development philosophy more at home in a research lab than the F1 paddock

it's just my observation and deduction, I am not privy to inside info and are therefore liable to be wrong, however this would explain the pattern that we saw last year and has been extended this year so far

 

[ATL11]

So who won?

 

[Fenderman]

That other bloke in a red car, out for a jolly Sunday afternoon spin, minding his own business. Apparently.

 

[Bill Boddy]

....So instead of the scientifically interesting goal of a perfect car suiting both drivers we have a team that centralised data for two different drivers and guess what, one driver has imposed his own personality and requirements on the process leading to a team working hard to satisfy him at the detriment of the other more flexible and obedient driver who has grown up in the team and trusts them completely....

An interesting post, although I would ask what evidence there is for the above statement.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

An interesting post, although I would ask what evidence there is for the above statement.

Observational skills can be distorted by bias or ability, a person wearing blinkers might see differently and so the 'evidence' has to be seen from a wider perspective to make sense

I.e don't ask for evidence and then say that you don't see it as evidence. If you had a theory then your evidence would suffice, as you don't and I do then my evidence suffices. Please remember that you have mentioned evidence, I will assume you mean my reasons as if you had read my post I say that I am only observing and deducing not being privy to inside info

Finally remember that, as I stated previously, my 'evidence' is therefore no more than my observation and deduction

So on to my observations that lead to the deductions? ( your yearning for evidence)

McLaren rearranged the process in the garage, bringing two sides of the garage under one control and centralising data and therefore centralising setup and development aims

Both drivers have different preferences wrt oversteer/ understeer, rear downforce and grip, and pointiness of the front

An F1 insider from Autosport points towards McLaren making decisions with complete disregard for LH in the assumption he can drive round issues and JB can't

Numerous examples of LHs race compromised as a result of pandering to JBs

Lh left out on old tyres because JB missed his pit slot

I haven't got time to be trawling my memory to satisfy a need for 'evidence' for a speculative notion, if it doesn't feel right to you ignore it

The most recent and perhaps most pertinent observation is of the recent radio transcripts pointing to corroboration of my theory of the dynamic within the team

 

[Andyoak]

Both JB and LH have equal opportunity to provide feedback and input into the development, set-up and racing of the car.
They both have the ability to nurture and build their garage around their needs.
The team has an interest in making sure this happens to the best of their abilities for both drivers.

The success is in the hands of the drivers and their garages... it may be that JB is better at it than LH; possibly through experience and maturity.

Credit to the team and both drivers that it hasn't blown up as it has in the past with two ferociously competitive drivers (Prost / Senna; Prost / Mansell; Mansell / Piquet; Hamilton / Alonso... ).

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Yep. I think things are pretty fair in the garage. It's the pitwall that causes me concern.

 

[Fenderman]

I've kept my trap shut about the conspiratorial angles that have occupied some minds and whilst that's fun it's not that helpful in understanding McLaren's problems. So this is what I have been thinking ...

Fundamentally, the team are making mistakes they shouldn't be making. The first of which is an apparent failure to learn from said mistakes of the past. They are mis-timing pit stops - arguably for both drivers, just on different occasions - and they are losing time in pit stops through clumsiness or lack of polished procedure and we saw that again on Sunday. They are also over-reliant on their ICT when making strategic decisions. It seems to me as an outsider that there is too much decision by committee.

The radio transcript posted earlier in this thread suggests to me a consultation process was taking place but that there appeared to be a lap or two before a decision. In one instance Lewis is asked for his thoughts on the conditions and it is clear to me that the decision relayed to Button as an instruction to "box" will have been based on his information. Therefore, I believe, that is evidence that information is routinely shared across the team. The problem is that this takes time. Lewis's engineer should have reacted to Lewis's information instructing him to "box" during that same exchange.

I don't see a conspiracy. I wouldn't put any money on Lewis not having a new contract with McLaren when the current one runs out. What I see is an organisational problem with regard to communication and information processing and a problem with the pit stop drill. These are issues McLaren can resolve if the will is there to modify their approach inside the garage, pit lane and on the pit wall.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I don't see a conspiracy. I wouldn't put any money on Lewis not having a new contract with McLaren when the current one runs out. What I see is an organisational problem with regard to communication and information processing and a problem with the pit stop drill. These are issues McLaren can resolve if the will is there to modify their approach inside the garage, pit lane and on the pit wall.

Well put Fenders, misguided management and process structures inherent in the team. There does not seem to be the will to change things, change the information flow, the data centralisation, the nature of the competition between the two sides of the garage, allocation of resources, deployment of new parts, common sense added to strategy, a rainmaker type leader

No conspiracy, just management incompetence leading to bewildering outcomes on track for both drivers generally and the younger one specifically

 

[racecub]

I think the mechanics do therr best to service the car that comes in, sometimes there are errors and its unfortunate, but thats how it is. Its not always good enough, but they're under immense pressure.
As Ninja points out, the pitwall is a different issue. There was a big reshuffle of personel when Jenson joined so Lewis could have no advantage by continuing with an engineer while Button had to start afresh. One wonders if this bending over backwards to accomodate Button has gone too far. He's no longer the new boy.
I also have concerns about Whitmarsh's leadeship and how much his preferences influence the whole team. From his comments in interviews it is impossible to come away with anything other than the impression that he prefers Button. Does he leave it there? Dont know.
The reason I've come to these conclusions about Whitmarsh is his "lets talk about Jenson" refrain. His excusing of Jensons weak points and talking up of his successes, hyperbole such as 'one of the best F1 races ever'.And of lewis we hear "he underestimated Jenson" 'he's affected because of how well Jenson is doing'. Both statements refuted by Lewis with some anger.Whilst I can understand the desire to settle in Button initially, why is he still talking him up .After the first race this season he was quoted as saying 'Jenson must believe he can win this championship, I certainly think he can' Why say that? If he truely believes Lewis is affected by Jenson's performance (and was not just mishcief making with those comments) would it not have been more politic to say something like "This race shows that we have the pace to win both titles this year. We have two excellent drivers, let the racing begin."

 

[ExtremeNinja]

They just need someone who can look at a situation, quickly assess what is going on in front of their eyes, stick thier nuts on the line, make a decision and enforce it.

Right, Lewis. Riciardo has just come out on slicks and he's 3 secs faster in sector 1. Box this lap.

Jenson, Riciardo has just come out and he's 3 seconds faster in sector 1 and 1 second faster in sector 2. Box this lap.

How bloody difficult is that? Give me the radio. I could have done that from my sofa.

 

[KekeTheKing]

If a pit stop doesn't work for the number crunchers back at "Mission Control", they simply wont pit. Its been happening for years. Witness China 07.