Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

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Maybe, and this is just speculation on my part (but then most of the stuff in this thread is as well), Mclaren expected rain and, as someone pointed out earlier, better to stop once for new inters than twice for inters and slicks. Had the rain returned Button would have been an even bigger loser.
Indeed. They played safe with Hamilton. If you're in 3rd position that's not unusual. You need the points for the championship.
I did consider that, but unless there was a sudden massive downpour within a few laps those on slicks would easily have made up the time loss of the pitstop and gained time depending on how long it was until it rained. The pitstop time loss in Malaysia is approximately 16.5seconds, those on slicks were around 5 seconds a lap faster than those inters so it would take just over 3 laps to regain the time lost by pitting for slicks.
But if it starts raining one or two laps after you pitted for slicks, you lose 5-10 seconds. And there was a realistic chance on rain, cause I've heard several teamradios mentioning it to their drives around that time.
I'm sure McLaren would have had their strategy team calculating every conceivable possibility, so having seen the times Ricciardo was putting in McLaren would have calculated what I have above well before they decided to pit Hamilton. So even if they believed it would to rain again (which it did, lightly on lap 44 I think) McLaren would have been able to work out pretty quickly that it was faster to pit for new slicks and potentially inters later than staying on worn inters and potentially new inters later.

Edit: Every other team must have realised this as Hamilton was the very last car on track to pit for slicks.
He could have gone in a lap sooner (in response to Alonsos' pitstop, but that wouldn't have made a difference in position. Perez would still have been ahead.
 
Indeed. They played safe with Hamilton. If you're in 3rd position that's not unusual. You need the points for the championship.
But if it starts raining one or two laps after you pitted for slicks, you lose 5-10 seconds. And there was a realistic chance on rain, cause I've heard several teamradios mentioning it to their drives around that time.
He could have gone in a lap sooner (in response to Alonsos' pitstop, but that wouldn't have made a difference in position. Perez would still have been ahead.
Wouldn't playing it safe be to do what every single other car on track did (and what McLaren did with their other driver) and pit for slicks the most suitable tyre for the conditions at that time?

There was a threat of rain but McLaren realised that it would be better to switch to slicks as they told Button, which can be seen in the radio transcript I posted: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/jenson-button-vs-lewis-hamilton.4734/page-14#post-117777
Plus if it had rained, these were the state of Hamilton's inters on lap 38. Even Button who has on 10 lap newer inters said, "These tyres will be no good if it rains."

LH lap 38.webp


It actually almost did lead to a change in position because Hamilton was also racing Vettel who was lapping faster than him. Prior to Vettel's pitstop (lap 40) he was 11 seconds behind Hamilton but from pitting earlier and slightly better pace, just before the incident with Karthikeyan (lap 47) he was 2 seconds behind Hamilton.
 
Getting back to Jenson V Lewis.


That goes out the window pretty quickly if (and when, but not always) Hamilton loses 3 or 4 tenths in tyre deg in relation to Button at certain moments of a stint.

I have never seen LH thrash a set of tyres like JB did last race, maybe JB is learning from LH, oh hold on that doesn't work
 
It actually almost did lead to a change in position because Hamilton was also racing Vettel who was lapping faster than him. Prior to Vettel's pitstop (lap 40) he was 11 seconds behind Hamilton but from pitting earlier and slightly better pace, just before the incident with Karthikeyan (lap 47) he was 2 seconds behind Hamilton.

I suppose therein lies the issue - Had Hamilton not stopped initially, and if it had rained, he could have stopped just the once for a new set of intermediates, and could have gained the lead. As it was, because Vettel was catching up, they couldn't afford to wait any longer! If, however, it had rained on lap 40, Alonso would've looked pretty stupid - and Hamilton pretty inspired!
 
some ppl knock lewis by saying he relies on his team too much.well so what if he does?because his team are supposed to be there to help him,so they should give him the help he needs when he needs it,but at the moment theyre not doing that.
so they are not doing thier jobs properly,and if the dont do thier job properly,how is lewis supposed to do his job properly.

it is supposed to be a team sport.
 
I have never seen LH thrash a set of tyres like JB did last race, maybe JB is learning from LH, oh hold on that doesn't work

Hi.

You'll note that I didn't say WHY Hamilton sometimes loses his 1-to-1-and-a-half tenths singular lap pace advantage to a 3-to-4 tenths tyre deg.

One of the reason WHY could be Button's first call to the pitstops from time to time. That's just ONE of the reasons. And, as I said, It (the idea of Hamilton losing those crucial 3-to-4 tenths to Button) doesn't happen ALL the time.

It can cut both ways sometimes.

On another topic: Button's rep as "variable weather specialist" wasn't exactly confirmed at the weekend, was it?

His Canadian GP victory last year was aided greatly by the 4 or 5 Safety Car situations which minimized Vettel's hard-earned leads time and agian. In addition, Button came off the better in a 50-50 tangle with Alonso at that Grand Prix which beached the Ferrari. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But Button hitting an HRT isn't the way to go about winning a World Championship, especially when you have the calible of driver of Hamilton driving the other car.
 
I suppose therein lies the issue - Had Hamilton not stopped initially, and if it had rained, he could have stopped just the once for a new set of intermediates, and could have gained the lead. As it was, because Vettel was catching up, they couldn't afford to wait any longer! If, however, it had rained on lap 40, Alonso would've looked pretty stupid - and Hamilton pretty inspired!
Indeed.
If they had pitted Hamilton before Alonso went in and it would have started to rain, then people would have complained that McLaren messed up. As they did it, they didn't gain a position, but didn't loose one as well.
There was a threat of rain but McLaren realised that it would be better to switch to slicks as they told Button, which can be seen in the radio transcript I posted: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/jenson-button-vs-lewis-hamilton.4734/page-14#post-117777
Plus if it had rained, these were the state of Hamilton's inters on lap 38. Even Button who has on 10 lap newer inters said, "These tyres will be no good if it rains.".

Nobody says that he wouldn't have had to pit at all if it had started to rain. But if he pitted for slicks and it would then have started to rain, he'd have to make an extra pitstop.
As said it's possible that McLaren tried to postpone the pitstop as long as possible to avoid making an extra pitstop back to inters.
It's not that hard to imagine that you make a different decision for the driver who is well into the points compared to the driver who is out of the points already.
 
Let's put it this way. Say it would have started to rain just before Hamilton pitted and they would have put him (and Perez) on inters again. Everyone else would need to pit again and Hamilton would move up to 2nd place. Then it would have been a brilliant move.

Anyway you can't just assume that if Hamilton would pit two laps earlier everything else would remain the same. Alonso already pitted in that lap, so it's pretty safe to assume that he would have pitted. Hamilton wouldn't have passed Alonso.
Most likely Perez would have responded to Hamiltons' pitstop as well and pit the next lap. Then he'd be on Alonsos' tail and most likely ahead of Hamilton. Only difference in that scenario that now Perez would have had a serious chance to win the race, because he wouldn't have to close the gap to Alonso.
Since Perez was lapping faster than Hamilton anyway, there's little chance that Hamilton would have caught up and passed Perez.
So in this scenario he still would have been 3rd.
 
I suppose therein lies the issue - Had Hamilton not stopped initially, and if it had rained, he could have stopped just the once for a new set of intermediates, and could have gained the lead. As it was, because Vettel was catching up, they couldn't afford to wait any longer! If, however, it had rained on lap 40, Alonso would've looked pretty stupid - and Hamilton pretty inspired!
I can't say that I've ever seen a track go from slicks to needing inters within 1 lap of rain, so the cars on slicks would have time to put in faster laps. As I said earlier, the pitstop time loss can be made up within a few laps as the slicks were so much faster you almost gain a free pitstop. The speed difference of a car's first full lap on slicks (after the out lap) was approximately 8 seconds (not the 10 I thought) faster their last full lap on worn inters (lap prior to in lap).

eg. Ricciardo Lap 36 - 1:57.200, Lap 39 - 1:49.8.00
Karthikeyan Lap 36 - 2:1.793, Lap 39 - 1:53.515
Alonso Lap 39 - 1:54.135, Lap 42 - 1:46.796
Hamilton Lap 40 - 1:53.135, Lap 43 - 1:43.897
 
Hi.
But Button hitting an HRT isn't the way to go about winning a World Championship, especially when you have the calible of driver of Hamilton driving the other car.
Yeah, and Button was the first person to admit this.. So, what was your point again?
 
I can't say that I've ever seen a track go from slicks to needing inters within 1 lap of rain. As I said earlier, the pitstop time loss can be made up within a few laps as the slicks were so much faster you almost gain a free pitstop, the speed difference of a car's first full lap on slicks (after the out lap) was approximately 10 seconds faster their last full lap on worn inters (lap prior to in lap).
But if it starts to rain, the difference in performance between inters and slicks will also decrease, even if the track isn't fully wet. And if it rains in Malaysia it mostly isn't a drizzle, so it will get wet fast. The performance of the slicks will decrease fast (not to mention the risk of going off), and the performance of inters will improve (relatively). And there will also be a difference in performance between worn inters and new inters.
 
Yeah, and Button was the first person to admit this.. So, what was your point again?

Button ought to be leading the World Championship given Hamilton's clutch, Safety Car and pitstop problems.

He isn't.

He's in the fastest Grand Prix car at the moment with a number of things going wrong for Hamilton in the other car in the first two races.

Button, in fact, isn't even in 2nd in the Championship.

Hopefully he can get his act together and convert his car advantage before Alonso/Ferrari really get their car working properly.
 
We're only two races in to the season and I don't see yet how we can say which way the coin will fall. Given the interesting relationship between the two Mclaren guys and between the Mclaren team and their drivers it could go either way.

Any suggestion that a team would "hobble" one of their drivers so covertly to favour the other seems a bit bizarre. If you are going to back one of them to be the team number one then teams tend to make it quite obvious i.e. "Remember your contract Rubens!!" and "Fernando is quicker than you!!" not "We'll leave you out just a couple more laps cause your team mate is in 14th (or where ever he was) and needs a boost".

The big danger for the Mclaren drivers is that they pinch points from each other allowing one of the other teams to nip in under the radar and take the title. From the evidence of the dry running so far it would seem that Mclaren have a golden opportunity to make hay while the sun shines and build up a buffer between themselves and the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari. Also, with Lotus and Mercedes being right up there among the big three on pace (but perhaps not quite good enough for the top step yet) those two will pinch points and podium spots from them which should help Mclaren as well.

I don't think we'll see a true picture until after the first few European races after the initial set of upgrades have had time to bed in. Every designer on the grid will be looking at drafting their own version of the Merc rear wing for example which will be a boost to some and bound to be stuffed up in design by at least one team.

It's highly enjoyable watching Button and Hamilton ply their craft with two very different styles both in and out of the car.
 
The big danger for the Mclaren drivers is that they pinch points from each other allowing one of the other teams to nip in under the radar and take the title. From the evidence of the dry running so far it would seem that Mclaren have a golden opportunity to make hay while the sun shines and build up a buffer between themselves and the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari. Also, with Lotus and Mercedes being right up there among the big three on pace (but perhaps not quite good enough for the top step yet) those two will pinch points and podium spots from them which should help Mclaren as well.

Hi.

Alonso is no longer "under the radar". He's actually on top of it!

The real danger - as I said in the McLaren thread - is Whitmarsh foolishly discounting Alonso as not being a "real (title) contender"! That was a pretty senseless thing to say (Autosport.Com, 26 March 2012).

I already think McLaren are in trouble. Their philosophy isn't right in terms of beating Alonso or Vettel to the Drivers Championship. (Perhaps they care mainly for the Constructors title?)

McLaren have failed to "make hay whilst the sun shone". In fact, they've dropped the proverbial ball and given the advantage to Alonso who will get a big upgrade for the 5th GP.

What if China is also a wet/dry race?
 
But if it starts to rain, the difference in performance between inters and slicks will also decrease, even if the track isn't fully wet. And if it rains in Malaysia it mostly isn't a drizzle, so it will get wet fast. The performance of the slicks will decrease fast (not to mention the risk of going off), and the performance of inters will improve (relatively). And there will also be a difference in performance between worn inters and new inters.

Let's say it did start to rain on Lap 41 whilst McLaren kept Hamilton out. Alonso was 8 seconds behind Hamilton after pitting at the end of the previous lap. Alonso would gain 5 seconds on Hamilton due to slicks, bringing him 3 seconds behind Hamilton. Hamilton would have the choice to pit for new inters that lap or stay out.
Scenario 1, Hamilton pits for new inters: The track won't be immediately wet so Alonso would have the chance in free air to continue making up time. Up until a point the slicks would continue to be faster than inters, so judging by the previous pace of the slicks it is highly probable that within 2 laps as the track got wetter Alonso could at least make up the 3 seconds he was behind Hamilton when Hamilton pitted. So if the rain did intensify enough for inters, and Alonso pitted he would at least be right with Hamilton when he came out, more likely in front.
Scenario 2, Hamilton stays out: Slicks are still faster than inters for a time so once again Alonso will be right with Hamilton if not in front whenever they both decide to pit for new inters.

Meanwhile, whatever happened in either of those rain scenarios Perez would still be well in front of Alonso and Hamilton becuase he had enough of a gap to cover them both, so Hamilton would only really be fighting for P2. This is all only if it did rain a fair amount as whilst you say it mostly isn't drizzle in Malaysia, it did only drizzle in the later stages of the actual race.

Hamilton and Perez were both closing on Alonso before and after he pitted so if Hamilton had pitted at least 1 lap earlier (lap 40) than he did, he would have gained 5 seconds on Perez and may have had the chance to challenge for P2 or P1, whilst being less vulnerable to Vettel behind. You're words were, They played safe with Hamilton. If you're in 3rd position that's not unusual. You need the points for the championship. Waiting for potential rain would be high risk not safe as everyone else had pitted and were on faster tyres, so wouldn't it be more logical to choose a strategy that covers Vettel and gives Hamilton a chance to challenge both cars in front?
 
Button ought to be leading the World Championship given Hamilton's clutch

No offense, but this shouldn't be used as an excuse (or at least not be used as a main excuse for his bad race as some people do... imo) as they only had a small clutch issue at the start.

Afterwards, I sat down with my engineers and we went through all the data. There was a small issue with the clutch at the start; it wasn't my fault, but we now understand and know how to improve in the future.
 
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