Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[Cookinflatsix]

Lewis wasn't the biggest net loser as he didn't lose any positions, Jenson lost the position to Riccardo by not pitting until 2 laps after him
snip/
But, I waste my time expecting you to take any of that on board Cook, yet I may as well try..

I am surprised you have decided to offer an opinion on this thread after all, but as you say, you are time wasting

Lewis lost any chance of winning a race he started on pole and made no meaningful mistake in, this IMHO was a much bigger loss than JBs

The team brought JB in as soon as it was clear that Ric made the right choice, any sooner would have been stupid, and then they left LH out for 2 whole laps

Yes it can be argued that they kept him out gambling on rain, or we're too conservative and simply screwed up

However in the context of the last two races and certain information about the team approach to set up as well as MWs behaviour at times, makes speculation vid that this last incident is another result of McLarens approach to both drivers. What that approach is is open to speculation

 

[FB]

Maybe, and this is just speculation on my part (but then most of the stuff in this thread is as well), Mclaren expected rain and, as someone pointed out earlier, better to stop once for new inters than twice for inters and slicks. Had the rain returned Button would have been an even bigger loser.

 

[RickD]

I am surprised you have decided to offer an opinion on this thread after all, but as you say, you are time wasting

Lewis lost any chance of winning a race he started on pole and made no meaningful mistake in, this IMHO was a much bigger loss than JBs

The team brought JB in as soon as it was clear that Ric made the right choice, any sooner would have been stupid, and then they left LH out for 2 whole laps

Yes it can be argued that they kept him out gambling on rain, or we're too conservative and simply screwed up

However in the context of the last two races and certain information about the team approach to set up as well as MWs behaviour at times, makes speculation vid that this last incident is another result of McLarens approach to both drivers. What that approach is is open to speculation

What behaviour is that Cook? Care to enlighten me with your wisdom as I have no clue what you are on about in this regard?

 

[FB]

Mod Comment

Can we please drop the snide remarks and innuendo. Similar comments will be deleted.

Thanks

FB

 

[Hamberg]

Once again nice half truths on that one.

I just want to commend you for actually reading the article, I got to www.dailymail and had already made my own mind up!

Racecub/cookin as such avid Hamilton fan's I'm sure you read his book and therefore don't need to trawl through tabloids to confirm your interpretations

 

[Hamberg]

Maybe, and this is just speculation on my part (but then most of the stuff in this thread is as well), Mclaren expected rain and, as someone pointed out earlier, better to stop once for new inters than twice for inters and slicks. Had the rain returned Button would have been an even bigger loser.

Probably, but given Button questioned it and McLaren continued anyway they would have had a very unhappy driver on their hands (JB) if they got it wrong. I understand the whole taking a gamble thing but they were so far off the mark it was ridiculous.

They were racing the Red Bulls rather than going for a win.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Hamilton to Wiliams for 2013?

 

[Hamberg]

"I have told Lewis that it is days like this, where you have damage limitation and score some valuable points, where you win world championships. I think he will reflect on that at some point and realise that is the right thing." Whitmarsh

He's got a point...

 

[Viscount]

Maybe, and this is just speculation on my part (but then most of the stuff in this thread is as well), Mclaren expected rain and, as someone pointed out earlier, better to stop once for new inters than twice for inters and slicks. Had the rain returned Button would have been an even bigger loser.

I did consider that, but unless there was a sudden massive downpour within a few laps those on slicks would easily have made up the time loss of the pitstop and gained time depending on how long it was until it rained. The pitstop time loss in Malaysia is approximately 16.5seconds, those on slicks were around 5 seconds a lap faster than those inters so it would take just over 3 laps to regain the time lost by pitting for slicks.

I'm sure McLaren would have had their strategy team calculating every conceivable possibility, so having seen the times Ricciardo was putting in McLaren would have calculated what I have above well before they decided to pit Hamilton. So even if they believed it would to rain again (which it did, lightly on lap 44 I think) McLaren would have been able to work out pretty quickly that it was faster to pit for new slicks and potentially inters later than staying on worn inters and potentially new inters later.

Edit: Every other team must have realised this as Hamilton was the very last car on track to pit for slicks.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Regarding the' Whitmarsh sacking Lewis' link that Racecub kindly supplied, it was nothing to do with this thread and indeed was totally out of context as it referred to a completely different line of discussion a whole year ago on the old 606

Cook please don't change the subject. You still haven't provided links to Jenson ditching his preganat GF and Whitmarsh sacking Lewis from the Mclaren youth programme you promised me a year ago - Please show me your superior research skills by providing links otherwise we all might think you made them up to try and back up your argument. You wouldn't want us to think that Cook would you?

So racecub or myself or anyone else are not saying MW ripping up the contract is relevant here, no one here has said it proves anything, just satisfying someone persistently wanting to see the 'evidence'

And yes even though all these things can be found in LHs books sometimes a link is what people want to see and thanks to Racecubs research skills we have one

 

[RasputinLives]

Regarding the' Whitmarsh sacking Lewis' link that Racecub kindly supplied, it was nothing to do with this thread and indeed was totally out of context as it referred to a completely different line of discussion a whole year ago on the old 606




So racecub or myself or anyone else are not saying MW ripping up the contract is relevant here, no one here has said it proves anything, just satisfying someone persistently wanting to see the 'evidence'

And yes even though all these things can be found in LHs books sometimes a link is what people want to see and thanks to Racecubs research skills we have one

But he didn't sack him did he? In fact in your original discussion you stated Whitmarsh sacked Lewis and Ron Dennis had to go get him back so my statement about half truths stands.

On top of which the quote provided by Racecub was deisgned to make it look like Whitmarsh as saying he didn't want Lewis at Mclaren when in actual fact he was saying he should get a good manager behind him.

But I'm sure the argument will be its how I interpret it all. Its all the way I read it nothing to do with the way its posted at all I'm sure.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I hear you mad monk I r ember stating my opinions about the dynamics between LH MW and RD and said my impression was that LH was more wary of MW and more close to RD and incidents like MW ripping up his contract won't have helped, and you wanted proof

Anyway let's just bury this one right now because it could derail the thread which is not all about LH

 

[Jen]

Anyway let's just bury this one right now because it could derail the thread which is not all about LH

 

[kristi]

Getting back to Jenson V Lewis.

I've noted that Hamilton is, on average, about 1 to 1-and-a-half tenths faster than Button when it comes to out-right pure pace when it comes to things like final qualifying.

That goes out the window pretty quickly if (and when, but not always) Hamilton loses 3 or 4 tenths in tyre deg in relation to Button at certain moments of a stint.

Button may not have Hamilton's ultimate pace but, as any unbiased observer will tell you, he seems to be able to be quicker at crucial stages of a stint in this new Pirelli deg era that we have.

It's down to driving style obviously.

From my perspective, I think Hamilton will need to modify his 'style' to suit the different 'eras' his career is likely to see out. Alonso and Raikkonen and Schumacher and even Vettel have been noted for adjusting their style to tyres. Not all the time mind you...but moreso than what Hamilton's been noted to do.

This isn't a criticism per se'. It's merely an obsevation.

Jimmy Clark, it's said, was able to drive anything. F1 cars, Lotus Cortinas, Indy cars. He adjusted as needed. Perhaps Lewis can take a page out of Clark's book?

 

[Hamberg]

Getting back to Jenson V Lewis.

I've noted that Hamilton is, on average, about 1 to 1-and-a-half tenths faster than Button when it comes to out-right pure pace when it comes to things like final qualifying.

That goes out the window pretty quickly if (and when, but not always) Hamilton loses 3 or 4 tenths in tyre deg in relation to Button at certain moments of a stint.

Button may not have Hamilton's ultimate pace but, as any unbiased observer will tell you, he seems to be able to be quicker at crucial stages of a stint in this new Pirelli deg era that we have.

It's down to driving style obviously.

From my perspective, I think Hamilton will need to modify his 'style' to suit the different 'eras' his career is likely to see out. Alonso and Raikkonen and Schumacher and even Vettel have been noted for adjusting their style to tyres. Not all the time mind you...but moreso than what Hamilton's been noted to do.

This isn't a criticism per se'. It's merely an obsevation.

Jimmy Clark, it's said, was able to drive anything. F1 cars, Lotus Cortinas, Indy cars. He adjusted as needed. Perhaps Lewis can take a page out of Clark's book?

And I have a feeling this is what he is attempting this year given the focus on consistency and also needing to eek his tyres out.

 

[kristi]

@ Hamberg

Yes, and he should - and will - continue on this learning curve. Hamilton's Ace in the hole is that he, in the end, is the faster driver over a singular lap.

His Achilles Heel is that he needs to round out his arsenal, namely tyre management, mind management and political intra-team management.

He's working on tyre management. He has 100 percent control of how he goes about ironing out his personal issues and his mind management. But what he doesn't have control over is how well Button gets along politically within the McLaren team.

If, as rumoured in some circles, Lewis is possibly out of his way from McLaren at the end of this year, then he'll have a huge challenge on his hands.

Lucky for him that Button had an absolutley howler of a Grand Prix at the weekend thus allowing him the points lead within the team. Hamilton will need to ensure that points lead all the way to November.

Converting Poles to wins would help. It's not so easy, is it? (Everyone thought it was "easy" to win from Pole when Vettel was doing it last year. Well, it ain't that easy. Lewis will tell you.)

 

[racecub]

Its not easy at all, it takes skill.The fastest car and a team 100% behind you help too.

 

[riskitall]

@ Hamberg

Yes, and he should - and will - continue on this learning curve. Hamilton's Ace in the hole is that he, in the end, is the faster driver over a singular lap.

His Achilles Heel is that he needs to round out his arsenal, namely tyre management, mind management and political intra-team management.

He's working on tyre management. He has 100 percent control of how he goes about ironing out his personal issues and his mind management. But what he doesn't have control over is how well Button gets along politically within the McLaren team.

If, as rumoured in some circles, Lewis is possibly out of his way from McLaren at the end of this year, then he'll have a huge challenge on his hands.

Lucky for him that Button had an absolutley howler of a Grand Prix at the weekend thus allowing him the points lead within the team. Hamilton will need to ensure that points lead all the way to November.

Converting Poles to wins would help. It's not so easy, is it? (Everyone thought it was "easy" to win from Pole when Vettel was doing it last year. Well, it ain't that easy. Lewis will tell you.)

well having race pace will help massively.
mclaren have quali pace,but thier race pace isnt the best,and it wasnt the fastest in malaysia.
quali pace is great,but race pace so far looks alot more even.
in practice,alonso's race pace was better than mclarens,i think even redbulls was too.
for alot of last season tho redbull had great race pace and quali pace.
china should let us see things more clearly tho.
and the tyre management thing is made too much of,its never really been a big deal.
infact there were times last season where jenson wore his tyres out before lewis.
ppl talk like lewis wore out his tyres in every race quicker than everyone else,but it only happened a few times.
this is why he was the only driver challenging vettel up until monaco.
he then got impatient and frustrated because of what happened in quali,and thats when his season started to fall apart.
but because of collisions,punctures and a gear box failure,it wasnt because of tyre problems.
and it will be easier for lewis this season if he stops losing so much time because of slow pitstops,and poorly timed ones.

 

[teabagyokel]

I hope McLaren don't do one of those demo pitstops Red Bull tend to do - outside the Houses of Parliament for example. Was Jenson chosen because he was McLaren's poster boy, Whitmarsh's fancy, because he'd gain time on Lewis to the tube station, because he voted Conservative* or because he won a game of "rock, paper, scissors"**?

*I don't know if he voted Conservative
**They're not nerdy enough to play "rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock".

 

[riskitall]

a recent quote from lewis...

"It definitely feels like some things are not going my way," he said. "In Australia the safety car kind of screwed me and in Malaysia, at the first pit stop, I was in the lead quite comfortably. But with the double shuffle with the Ferraris, I don't know if it was a bad call from my team, but I lost two places. Then I had problems with the right rear jack in the next stop and then in the one after that I had a problem with my right front. So it was a little bit unfortunate but my time will come I'm sure."