Ayrton Senna

Today (19 August 2011) "Senna" opens in Toronto and i'm taking off early from work to catch a matinee' viewing. This is about as good a time as any to open this thread...

From Prost's thread:

This has to be said and i'll say it again here...

The director of the movie "Senna" - Asif Kapadia - was on a Motor Sport Magazine podcast with then McLaren manager Jo Ramirez (who, unusually, was a trusted friend of both Senna and Prost)...and in the podcast he said something like this:

(Paraphrasing) "We had access to all of Bernies archives...and when we looked at the video of the cars coming out of Tosa at Imola, Schumacher's Benetton was the only car which exhibited unusual signs of, *ahem*, traction control...even the other Benetton didn't have it..."

Go to the Motor Sport Magazine website and click on 'podcasts' and listen for yourselves (June 15th podcast, I think).

Why do I bring it up? Well Senna suspected Schumacher's Benetton B194 had TC/LC and was driving out of his skin to make up for the difference. He noticed that it sounded and behaved differently (to even Verstappen's B194) while he watched them circulating from the wall after retiring at Aida (the second race of the year).

I don't need to go on about it, but you get the point.

Where does Prost come into this? Well, the Podcast goes into how Senna was on the telephone with Prost during that time talking, among other things, about that precise matter.

If Senna said that Schumi's car was using a form of TC, then personally I'd believe him. Prost believed Senna too. There aren't exactly any better qualified people to know such a thing. One thing I must say, however, is that despite the fact that Senna was trying to make up the difference through his own driving to keep up with Schumacher, I don't think this had anything to do with his death, something that a few twisted people (in my opinion) seem to think. Tamburello is not a corner that should worry an F1 car, even back then.

There was no greater expert on the sights and sounds of a Formula One car at Aida that day than Senna himself...And if his expert ears and eyes noted that only Schumacher's B194 sounded and reacted like it had traction control then i'm going to believe it. Period.

As per the accident at Tamburello...well, the saftey car that day wasn't exactly a Mercedes-Benz AMG...I believe it was an Opel and, as a result, a bit 'too' slow. The tyre pressures dropped significantly and that would have affected the ride height. Tamburello had a few bumps and when they went flat out again right after the SC pulled in, there's a reasonable chance the ride height wasn't what Senna would have imagined it to be.

[Safety Cars were a newer phenomenon in Formula One back then too, by the way. They were first properly introduced the year before (1993) and used only in two Grand Prix races.

They made many rule changes after that race, including making sure Safety Cars were faster so as to ensure tyre pressures didn't fall off significantly.]

Regardless, what are CTA members' memories and thoughts of Senna?

Mine were mixed. I thought he was immense and the fastest since Villeneuve ... but a bully. I was never his biggest fan primarily because his on track tactics at times bordered on insanity. Whereas Villeneuve risked his own life mainly, Senna didn't seem to have a problem with risking other drivers' lives while he was taking chances with his own.

Having said that, i'd rate the Brazilian thus All Time:

1= Senna
1= Prost
3. Clark
4. Fangio
5. Schumacher
6= Stewart
6= Moss

What are your thoughts and memories of the man and the driver?

 

[Jos the Boss]

Wow, couple of minutes in, this is very scary!

 

[Fenderman]

Ah, the legendary Clive James. Always tells a good story with that mischievous dry syle.

 

[Olivier]

Senna is the greatest f1 driver ... as per BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20324109

 

[Jen]

We have to wonder about the BBC's judgement on several things!

 

[Fenderman]

No we don't. The beeb went down the toilet a long time ago. They're just now trying to reinforce the concept so that any kind of intelligent audience fucks off and leaves them to it.

 

[Brogan]

I saw that a day or two ago Olivier and was going to post about it but then realised I couldn't be bothered

I'm no fan of Senna (just to state my position clearly) and I am struggling to understand how he can be regarded as the greatest ever driver. I suspect there's more than a bit of dead-sportsman-who-didn't-fulfil-his-potential wishful thinking going on.

 

[tooncheese]

Especially as the two seasons he had a world class team mate his was outscored twice.

 

[Galahad]

He's a perfectly reasonable choice. Not mine, but one of about five who can be considered worthy of consideration. He was by far the fastest of his generation.

 

[teabagyokel]

I'm with Brogan; everyone loves the deceased. Deliberately crashing into an opponent is not morally acceptable for young Piquet or Schumacher, but apparently Prost was the bad guy there.

Sorry, I'd say the greatest driver... Probably Fangio.

 

[Slyboogy]

I think it's too hard to say who the greatest drivers is.

Jim Clark, Ayrton Senna - unfulfilled potential.
Schumacher - most titles, wins, questionable antics.
Prost - Could have had 8 world titles, bit of controversy.
Fangio - Can't much find information about him, but team orders were around then and he definitely benefitted, then there's the argument of great drivers killed in the war.
Stewart - Ultra clean, and retired earlier than he should have.

If I had to give it to someone, it would probably be Prost, as he went up against several good drivers before Senna came along, and was in contention for 8 world titles in his career, and beat two drivers who were considered the best of their generation (Lauda and Senna).

Or Stewart.

 

[The Artist.....]

People make a lot of the fact that Prost out-scored Senna across both 88 and 89....

However, let's look at 89 in a little more detail.

16 races
Brazil - Hit by Berger on first lap, lost a lap changing front wing
San Marino - Mexico, 3 wins
USA - retires from the lead
Canada - retires whilst leading
France - Differential failed whilst second on the grid
GB - spun out of the lead due to Gearbox selection problems
Germany - Won
Hungary - second (Prost was fourth)
Belgium - 1st
Italy - Retired from the lead
Portugal - Hit by Mansell whilst in 2nd
Spain - won
Japan - Disqualified (After winning the race)
Australia - Retired after hitting Brundle whilst in the lead.

So, of all his retirements, he was in the lead or second at the time of the retirement, and only on 1 occasion was he behind Prost when he retired (France) - With a little better luck and reliability, Senna could have won 13 of the races in 1989! - Certainly the first 6 races were all "Senna" races, then he should also have probably won Italy, GB and Japan - and could easily have won Australia...

I would actually strongly argue that Senna drove much better, and was FAR more dominant in 1989 when he didn't win the championship than in 1988, when he did!

 

[Fenderman]

So let's look at the 1989 F1 WDC, Senna vs Prost all time head to head battle in detail ... another way ...

Round 1 – Jacarepagua, Brazil

In the early laps of his home GP, Ayrton Senna crowds Gerhard Berger into retirement, pits for a front wing change and finishes 11th, two laps down. Prost was on a two stop strategy but a dodgy clutch meant that ended up running the whole race on one set of tyres. Despite that he finished 2nd behind Nigel Mansell. A good example of his smooth style and tyre management that lies behind his nick-name, The Professor.

Round 2 – Imola, San Marino

McLaren lock out the grid with Senna’s second pole of the season. Prost is P2. It’s the scene of Berger’s horrifying crash at Tamburello and a “team orders” dispute in the McLaren garage. Senna’s win. Prost comes home second and has the hump. Prost and Senna’s antipathy towards each other intensifies.

Round 3 - Monaco

McLaren lock out the grid again - Senna on pole and Prost in P2. Typically processional Monaco race only shaken up by lot’s of retirements (most races in ’89 had half the field retiring anyway!). Senna wins with Prost coming home nearly a minute behind as he wasn’t in a hurry.

Round 4 – Hermanos Rodriguez, Mexico

Senna scores a hat-trick. Prost choses to start with a different tyre strategy which gets messed up because he’s given the wrong set of tyres at a pit stop. He ends up in 5th.

Round 5 – Phoenix, USA

Senna on pole for 4th time and Prost again in second spot. Senna’s electrics go duff when in the lead and he retires the car. Prost’s win.

Round 6 – Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Montreal, Canada

Prost on pole for a change but he DNF’d whilst Senna continued to lead a miserably wet race. An engine full of nails scotched his race but although he DNF’d he was classified 7th having completed 90% of the race distance.

Round 7 – Paul Ricard, France

Prost was on pole for his home race, Senna in second slot. Gugelmin’s first lap aerobatics when he piled his March onto Mansell's rear end meant the race had to be restarted. Senna was forced to pull out more or less immediately with a dodgy differential. Prost takes his 2nd win of the season.

Round 8 – Silverstone, Great Britain

Going into the second half of the season Prost leads Senna by 20 points. McLaren front row lock out again but Senna has another DNF and Prost gets his 3rd win of the year. The race was more memorable for Mansell’s podium finish (2nd) in his home race in a Ferrari, That drove the home fans and visitiing Tifosi totally nuts. Marvellous.

Round 9 – Hockenheim, Germany

Senna's on pole yet again but it’s their fiercest punch up to date with Prost giving him a truly hard time. Some poor McLaren pit-work mid-race had Prost taking the lead. A couple of laps from the finish he loses top gear and Senna goes on to complete the triple with pole, fastest lap and the win.

Round 10 – Hungaroring, Hungary

A race of upsets this one. For the first time in the season a McLaren isn’t on pole as Riccardo Patrese has it for Williams 0.31 sec’s ahead of Senna. Alex Caffi in a Dallara steals third spot. Nigel Mansell qualified 12th over two seconds off Patrese's pole time but goes on to win with Senna 30 sec’s down the road in 2nd. Meanwhile Prost is in his bad-luck-of –the-season-period woes ending up fourth.

Round 11 – Spa, Belgium

Senna’s on pole again at a soggy Spa. Prost and Senna both have engine trouble throughout the race but their skills in the wet secure yet another one-two finish for McLaren. Senna on the top step of the podium again, much to Prost’s chagrin. Mansell’s third place is his last podium for Ferrari in 1989 and the last race he actually finishes for the Scuderia that year.

Round 12 – Monza, Italy

Senna’s on pole again as storm clouds of a different kind loomed over the Italian Grand Prix. More precisely they developed in the McLaren camp and culminated with Ron Dennis chucking his toys out of his pram. Um, more precisely still, chucking the constructors’ trophy at Prost's pumps and storming off after the podium celebrations. Prost had had the temerity to announce that he was buggering off to Ferrari next season and ceremoniously donated his winners’ trophy to the Tifosi. As we all know Ron keeps all the trophies, so that was, like, sacrilege, man. Oh, and Senna had DNF’d late into the race, from the lead, again.

Round 13 – Estoril, Portugal

Yet another pole position for Ayrton Senna. If championships were decided in qualifying the Fat Lady would have been in full song by now. But they aren’t and Prost leads Senna by 24 points as the effects of the “dropped points” scoring system kick in.

Senna falls victim of bizarre circumstance as he has a collision with Nigel Mansell. Bizarre because Mansell shouldn’t have been there. Our Nige had reversed in pit lane, which was illegal, and went on to ignore the black flags that were trying to tell him that he was disqualified. Some say Senna was being impatient and didn’t need to get caught up in a squabble with Mansell, whatever. Senna DNF’d and Mansell got banned from the next round.

Anyhow, Gerhard Berger took one of his few F1 wins - who would argue with that – and Prost finished up second.

Round 14 – Jerez, Spain

Senna breathes life back into the title chase having secured his umpteenth pole and leading all the way. Berger comes home second having started back in 7th on the grid and Prost who drove a quiet, conservative race takes the third step of the podium. More dropped points but Senna needs to win the last two races, with Prost having a bad time, to win the championship.

Round 15 - Suzuka, Japan

Yeah, Suzuka 1989, is etched into the minds of anyone old enough to remember it. More like the gunfight at The OK Corral we have Prost stating publicly that he isn’t going to leave an open door for Senna but with Senna on pole peep’s don’t think he’ll need an open door.

Funny thing though, Prost gets the better start builds a lead of 1.4 seconds in the first lap meanwhile Senna loses places and has to fight his way through the field. Pit stops shuffle things and Senna has fight like a loon to take it to Prost.

Then it happens. Senna attacks Prost on the entry to that awful chicane between 130R and the main straight. Prost has left a barn door open thinking that Senna is too far back to make one of his customary risky moves. Senna charges in as the gap is closed and both Mclaren’s go straight on into the short cut. Prost gets out of his car and storms off but Senna gesticulates furiously to the marshals who obligingly give him a push start.

Senna pits for a new wing and enthrals the crowd as he drives back up the field, again, to win. He thought. Unfortunately, his push start by the marshals meant he had missed out the chicane and therefore, technically, had not completed lap 46. He was disqualified. Appeals notwithstanding, Prost was WDC elect.

Round 16 – Adelaide, Australia

More high jinx as torrential rain pummelled Adelaide. Senna wanted to boycott this race in protest at being disqualified in Japan but Ron and his mates persuaded him to take the start.. Another pole position was in Senna’s handbag. Prost pulled out at the end of lap one. Senna carried on to build a 30 second lead over the nearest rival, pushing too hard for comfort. 13 laps in, he rear-ended Martin Brundle's Brabham and crashed out. There endeth a classic season in F1 with everyone on tenter-hooks until all of the courtroom drama was sorted out off track, before Alain Prost would finally receive his third WDC title.

Conclusion

So what can we learn from all this? There can be no dispute that in the same car, in the same team Ayrton Senna was a faster driver than Alain Prost. His qualifying proved that. But was he better? Throughout the season they both had mechanical set backs and other common issues but in the end Prost took the title., so that year he was the better of the two. All the if’s but’s and maybe’s don’t change the fact that he had a significant points advantage by round 13. Senna’s aggressive style probably didn’t help his cause in trying to wrest points back. Indeed, it could be argued that those few occasions during the season when he tried stuff that didn’t work mark him out as the less complete driver of the two, at the time. It's ll subjective, like them or loathe them, they're twp sides of a coin. how could either of them have been so good without the other?

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

The great man would have been 53 today. Here's his pole lap from Adelaide '85

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/videos/3201/ayrton-senna-s-pole-lap-adelaide-1985/

 

[Mezzer]

Unfortunately, his push start by the marshals meant he had missed out the chicane and therefore, technically, had not completed lap 46. He was disqualified. Appeals notwithstanding, Prost was WDC elect.

Let's face it, it could have been argued that the push start was illegal (just as it could have been argued it was in an unsafe place so the push was OK a la Patrese at Monaco in 82), but the suggestion that there was any gain made by cutting the chicane having sat still fo several seconds is just complete nonsense. Balestre's affection for Prost was very well known and hardly hidden, Senna was taken for a ride by a guy who thought F1 was his toy to play with and this incident IMO played a role in Balestre's eventual ousting. Unfortunately Max then caught the "F1 is my toy" bug, but that's another story. I, for one, thought Senna was great long before he died, he did things I've seen very few since then pull off.

 

[Fenderman]

Indeed Mezzer , and all of those permutations were discussed endlessly by the commentators, in the motorsport press and no doubt during the hearings. The FIA made a ruling, appeals were rejected and the rest is part of the colourful weave of history.

I have done nothing more than relate the events as they have been recorded and make no personal judgement on the rights and wrongs of any particular incident. My conclusion is simply that both Prost and Senna were great drivers of their era.

Pick away at the bones of that season if you like but my appetite was satiated at the time and I have enjoyed the odd nostalgic nibble since so, with the greatest of respect to all, I'll leave others to argue over the minutiae.

 

[Mezzer]

I hear you Fenderman, both Senna and Prost were the clear talents of the time, IMO. Senna was my clear favourite of the two, but that doesn't diminish the fact that Prost was also an extraordinary driver. If he had been a Brit rather than French, who knows how much more he would have been loved.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

Thursday will be the 20th anniversary of the European GP at Donnington and to mark this Sky F1 will be showing a 30min highlights programme.

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1...-20th-anniversary-of-1993-European-Grand-Prix

 

[gethinceri]

It only lasted 30 minutes?

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

The wife pointed out these today in Tesco:



I fully expect my wet-weather driving skills to improve tenfold and to cut at least a second off my daily commute or I want my money back.

 

[FB]

I think you can guarantee you will need to drive a bit faster after taking those or risk a Timo Glock type "brown trouser" moment...