Ayrton Senna

Today (19 August 2011) "Senna" opens in Toronto and i'm taking off early from work to catch a matinee' viewing. This is about as good a time as any to open this thread...

From Prost's thread:

This has to be said and i'll say it again here...

The director of the movie "Senna" - Asif Kapadia - was on a Motor Sport Magazine podcast with then McLaren manager Jo Ramirez (who, unusually, was a trusted friend of both Senna and Prost)...and in the podcast he said something like this:

(Paraphrasing) "We had access to all of Bernies archives...and when we looked at the video of the cars coming out of Tosa at Imola, Schumacher's Benetton was the only car which exhibited unusual signs of, *ahem*, traction control...even the other Benetton didn't have it..."

Go to the Motor Sport Magazine website and click on 'podcasts' and listen for yourselves (June 15th podcast, I think).

Why do I bring it up? Well Senna suspected Schumacher's Benetton B194 had TC/LC and was driving out of his skin to make up for the difference. He noticed that it sounded and behaved differently (to even Verstappen's B194) while he watched them circulating from the wall after retiring at Aida (the second race of the year).

I don't need to go on about it, but you get the point.

Where does Prost come into this? Well, the Podcast goes into how Senna was on the telephone with Prost during that time talking, among other things, about that precise matter.

If Senna said that Schumi's car was using a form of TC, then personally I'd believe him. Prost believed Senna too. There aren't exactly any better qualified people to know such a thing. One thing I must say, however, is that despite the fact that Senna was trying to make up the difference through his own driving to keep up with Schumacher, I don't think this had anything to do with his death, something that a few twisted people (in my opinion) seem to think. Tamburello is not a corner that should worry an F1 car, even back then.

There was no greater expert on the sights and sounds of a Formula One car at Aida that day than Senna himself...And if his expert ears and eyes noted that only Schumacher's B194 sounded and reacted like it had traction control then i'm going to believe it. Period.

As per the accident at Tamburello...well, the saftey car that day wasn't exactly a Mercedes-Benz AMG...I believe it was an Opel and, as a result, a bit 'too' slow. The tyre pressures dropped significantly and that would have affected the ride height. Tamburello had a few bumps and when they went flat out again right after the SC pulled in, there's a reasonable chance the ride height wasn't what Senna would have imagined it to be.

[Safety Cars were a newer phenomenon in Formula One back then too, by the way. They were first properly introduced the year before (1993) and used only in two Grand Prix races.

They made many rule changes after that race, including making sure Safety Cars were faster so as to ensure tyre pressures didn't fall off significantly.]

Regardless, what are CTA members' memories and thoughts of Senna?

Mine were mixed. I thought he was immense and the fastest since Villeneuve ... but a bully. I was never his biggest fan primarily because his on track tactics at times bordered on insanity. Whereas Villeneuve risked his own life mainly, Senna didn't seem to have a problem with risking other drivers' lives while he was taking chances with his own.

Having said that, i'd rate the Brazilian thus All Time:

1= Senna
1= Prost
3. Clark
4. Fangio
5. Schumacher
6= Stewart
6= Moss

What are your thoughts and memories of the man and the driver?

 

[tooncheese]

Swings and roundabouts.

A few small changes could suddenly have a completely different sport. A the drivers could have won more or less - I heard a very convincing argument once that Fangio could have won every year in the 50s, and other's that Piquet could have won no titles at all. Even Reutterman, if the South African GP went ahead, or he didn't meltdown at Ceaser's Palace, he could have won in 1981, and maybe won 1982 were it not for the falling out with Frank. Anyway its all irrelevant, every Senna discussion ends up like this.

 

[FB]

Fact is that each driver won the title under the rules that applied in that season and it doesn't matter how you care to redefine history every table you look at, and the WDC Trophy, shows those men as champions whether you agree with it or not.

 

[teabagyokel]

Fact is that each driver won the title under the rules that applied in that season and it doesn't matter how you care to redefine history every table you look at, and the WDC Trophy, shows those men as champions whether you agree with it or not.

The main point about highlighting that is that Senna fans (and it is usually Senna fans) always find a way to claim that Schumacher's titles are unworthy so they can argue that he's not the greatest of all time. It could be done for any driver, all the ifs and buts.

 

[Mezzer]

The main point about highlighting that is that Senna fans (and it is usually Senna fans) always find a way to claim that Schumacher's titles are unworthy so they can argue that he's not the greatest of all time.

As a Senna fan I'm happy to state that Schumacher is not the greatest, a very easy statement to stand by as it's purely subjective. I've no problem agreeing he's the most successful.

 

[Jos the Boss]

I also forgot to mention that Senna getting his license banned for 6 months was a joke! It was like Prost made the rules!

 

[tooncheese]

I also forgot to mention that Senna getting his license banned for 6 months was a joke! It was like Prost made the rules!

It was probably Balestre. Apparently at Monaco once Prost was saying how he wasn't allowed to wear his open-faced helmet, but Balestre said that it was fine and he could wear it in the car if he wanted, however Prost was talking about his Moped.

 

[Jos the Boss]

It was probably Balestre. Apparently at Monaco once Prost was saying how he wasn't allowed to wear his open-faced helmet, but Balestre said that it was fine and he could wear it in the car if he wanted, however Prost was talking about his Moped.

This is levels of favouritism Bernie wouldn't be proud of! Senna was treated like a criminal and being DSQ for cutting the chicane? that was the biggest joke of all as Ron showed that nice video afterwards!

 

[Slyboogy]

This is levels of favouritism Bernie wouldn't be proud of! Senna was treated like a criminal and being DSQ for cutting the chicane? that was the biggest joke of all as Ron showed that nice video afterwards!

It cancels out what he did next season though...

 

[Il_leone]

The main point about highlighting that is that Senna fans (and it is usually Senna fans) always find a way to claim that Schumacher's titles are unworthy so they can argue that he's not the greatest of all time. It could be done for any driver, all the ifs and buts.

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He beat a world champion teammate and the guy who was considered the best in the paddock at the time in the same team and did not have to ask his team to move his teammate over and faced some serious competition not just from Prost but also occasionally Mansell, Berger and teammate

That to me is enough to rank Senna above Schumacher

Schumacher's reputation has not been helped by his domination boredom years at Ferrari we had to sit through

 

[teabagyokel]

He beat a world champion teammate and the guy who was considered the best in the paddock at the time in the same team and did not have to ask his team to move his teammate over

So did Jenson Button...

 

[gethinceri]

So Jenson is as good a driver as Senna was?
I never knew you were such a Button fan!

 

[teabagyokel]

So Jenson is as good a driver as Senna was?
I never knew you were such a Button fan!

Well, all I'm saying is that few are queueing up to call Button the greatest of all time, are they?

 

[gethinceri]

Yes mate, I got what you were saying, I think that there are few driver combos and seasons where you get a true shoot-out and Leone is right to pick Senna Prost as a key one.
The fact that 88 and 89 had the same protagonists made them great seasons, hein?

 

[teabagyokel]

Yes mate, I got what you were saying, I think that there are few driver combos and seasons where you get a true shoot-out and Leone is right to pick Senna Prost as a key one.
The fact that 88 and 89 had the same protagonists made them great seasons, hein?

Yeah. Not conclusive either way though.

 

[Il_leone]

Yeah. Not conclusive either way though.

In becoming world champion Prost beat Lauda, Rosberg and Senna - all world champions and two of them were reigning world champions at the time when he did

and also Prost before being teamed up with Senna only lost to his teammate in his rookie season 1980

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in 1988 Prost would have still be considered at his peak and more importantly considered No 1 in the Mclaren and for Senna to come along and blow him away with his incredible pace and intensity like he did and drive Prost out of Mclaren is something that no one would have expected to happen

I should add Senna did become world champion in his first season with Mclaren as well .

The politics at Ferrari with Schumacher during the early 2000's has not helped his reputation to say he is better than Senna. I say that because surely Schumacher could have handled Barrichello without all the team politics and prove he was a better driver on the track than waiting for the pitwall to manipulate races

 

[teabagyokel]

In 1988 Prost would have still be considered at his peak and more importantly considered No 1 in the Mclaren and for Senna to come along and blow him away with his incredible pace and intensity like he did and drive Prost out of Mclaren is something that no one would have expected to happen.

He won the title by 3 points in 1988, then lost it by 16 points in 1989. That does not seem to me like Prost was "blown away".

The politics at Ferrari with Schumacher during the early 2000's has not helped his reputation to say he is better than Senna. I say that because surely Schumacher could have handled Barrichello without all the team politics and prove he was a better driver on the track than waiting for the pitwall to manipulate races

I think this manipulating races think is a little bit unfair on Schumacher. Yes, he leapfrogged him in Austria, but how many times in the five years together did Ferrari actually deem it necessary to pull Barrichello out of the way? It didn't happen often enough to justify the hand wringing that followed. The times he beat Schumacher overwhelmingly tended to be at the end of a season or when Schumacher needed less than a win to take the title.

Schumacher never beat a really good driver in the same car, although it could be argued that he probably beat Hakkinen in 2000 in an inferior car. If you slot him back into the 1997 standings:

[COLOR=#0000ff]VIL 81[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]MSC 78[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#0000ff]FRE 42[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#808080]COU 36[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#00ccff]ALE 36[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#00ccff]BER 27[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#808080]HAK 27[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]IRV 24[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ffff00]FIS 20[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#000080]PAN 16[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]

[/COLOR]
He was 3 points off the title which in his team-mates hands was only 4 points better off than Giancarlo Fisichella's Jordan and only 8 better than a Ligier driver who missed half the season!

The cheating and in-house political favouritism undoubtedly casts a shadow over some of his achievements, but certainly is not enough to split him from Senna (of all people!). I can't believe Schumacher's generation was weaker than any other, I just expect that they were made to look poor by competing with Schumacher.

 

[Il_leone]

He won the title by 3 points in 1988, then lost it by 16 points in 1989. That does not seem to me like Prost was "blown away".



I think this manipulating races think is a little bit unfair on Schumacher. Yes, he leapfrogged him in Austria, but how many times in the five years together did Ferrari actually deem it necessary to pull Barrichello out of the way? It didn't happen often enough to justify the hand wringing that followed. The times he beat Schumacher overwhelmingly tended to be at the end of a season or when Schumacher needed less than a win to take the title.

Schumacher never beat a really good driver in the same car, although it could be argued that he probably beat Hakkinen in 2000 in an inferior car. If you slot him back into the 1997 standings:

[COLOR=#0000ff]VIL 81[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]MSC 78[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#0000ff]FRE 42[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#808080]COU 36[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#00ccff]ALE 36[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#00ccff]BER 27[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#808080]HAK 27[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000]IRV 24[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ffff00]FIS 20[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#000080]PAN 16[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]

[/COLOR]
He was 3 points off the title which in his team-mates hands was only 4 points better off than Giancarlo Fisichella's Jordan and only 8 better than a Ligier driver who missed half the season!

The cheating and in-house political favouritism undoubtedly casts a shadow over some of his achievements, but certainly is not enough to split him from Senna (of all people!). I can't believe Schumacher's generation was weaker than any other, I just expect that they were made to look poor by competing with Schumacher.

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Okay Senna cheated in Japan 1990 and Schumacher in Jerez 1997.

Worse was for Schumacher he was actually getting praise if he won the 1997 title against Villeneuve who made a real mess of having the best car with the spate of errors and accidents he had that was until Michael did that dirty move and you could see the whole paddock shaking their heads with that.

I agree Barrichello only took crumbs left whenever he won for Ferrari because usually Schumacher was out of the race or in trouble but overall in a straight fight without the politics he would have beaten Rubens without the politics needed to do so.

Ferrari did make most of the rules and tools available to them then than others but ultimately if he had just raced Rubens throughout the season he surely would have come out on top each time without some pitwall interference or strategy calls etc

 

[Jos the Boss]

Today would have been Senna's 52nd birthday, happy birthday Ayrton

 

[Galahad]

Sorry I missed this. Hope this makes up for it somewhat:

Not a bad noise for a turbo engine!

 

[Josh]

Anybody interested in Senna's Toleman?
http://www.silverstoneauctions.com/ex-ayrton-senna-1984-toleman-tg-184-2