Ayrton Senna

tooncheese

Hans Heyer
Contributor
Swings and roundabouts.
A few small changes could suddenly have a completely different sport. A the drivers could have won more or less - I heard a very convincing argument once that Fangio could have won every year in the 50s, and other's that Piquet could have won no titles at all. Even Reutterman, if the South African GP went ahead, or he didn't meltdown at Ceaser's Palace, he could have won in 1981, and maybe won 1982 were it not for the falling out with Frank. Anyway its all irrelevant, every Senna discussion ends up like this.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Fact is that each driver won the title under the rules that applied in that season and it doesn't matter how you care to redefine history every table you look at, and the WDC Trophy, shows those men as champions whether you agree with it or not.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Fact is that each driver won the title under the rules that applied in that season and it doesn't matter how you care to redefine history every table you look at, and the WDC Trophy, shows those men as champions whether you agree with it or not.
The main point about highlighting that is that Senna fans (and it is usually Senna fans) always find a way to claim that Schumacher's titles are unworthy so they can argue that he's not the greatest of all time. It could be done for any driver, all the ifs and buts.
 

Mezzer

A fine chap if ever there was one.
Contributor
The main point about highlighting that is that Senna fans (and it is usually Senna fans) always find a way to claim that Schumacher's titles are unworthy so they can argue that he's not the greatest of all time.
As a Senna fan I'm happy to state that Schumacher is not the greatest, a very easy statement to stand by as it's purely subjective. I've no problem agreeing he's the most successful.
 

Jos the Boss

Champion Elect
I also forgot to mention that Senna getting his license banned for 6 months was a joke! It was like Prost made the rules!
 

tooncheese

Hans Heyer
Contributor
I also forgot to mention that Senna getting his license banned for 6 months was a joke! It was like Prost made the rules!
It was probably Balestre. Apparently at Monaco once Prost was saying how he wasn't allowed to wear his open-faced helmet, but Balestre said that it was fine and he could wear it in the car if he wanted, however Prost was talking about his Moped.
 

Jos the Boss

Champion Elect
It was probably Balestre. Apparently at Monaco once Prost was saying how he wasn't allowed to wear his open-faced helmet, but Balestre said that it was fine and he could wear it in the car if he wanted, however Prost was talking about his Moped.
This is levels of favouritism Bernie wouldn't be proud of! Senna was treated like a criminal and being DSQ for cutting the chicane? that was the biggest joke of all as Ron showed that nice video afterwards!
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
The main point about highlighting that is that Senna fans (and it is usually Senna fans) always find a way to claim that Schumacher's titles are unworthy so they can argue that he's not the greatest of all time. It could be done for any driver, all the ifs and buts.
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He beat a world champion teammate and the guy who was considered the best in the paddock at the time in the same team and did not have to ask his team to move his teammate over and faced some serious competition not just from Prost but also occasionally Mansell, Berger and teammate

That to me is enough to rank Senna above Schumacher

Schumacher's reputation has not been helped by his domination boredom years at Ferrari we had to sit through
 

gethinceri

Daniil Kvyat Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan.
Contributor
So Jenson is as good a driver as Senna was?
I never knew you were such a Button fan!
 

gethinceri

Daniil Kvyat Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan.
Contributor
Yes mate, I got what you were saying, I think that there are few driver combos and seasons where you get a true shoot-out and Leone is right to pick Senna Prost as a key one.
The fact that 88 and 89 had the same protagonists made them great seasons, hein?
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Yes mate, I got what you were saying, I think that there are few driver combos and seasons where you get a true shoot-out and Leone is right to pick Senna Prost as a key one.
The fact that 88 and 89 had the same protagonists made them great seasons, hein?
Yeah. Not conclusive either way though.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
Yeah. Not conclusive either way though.
In becoming world champion Prost beat Lauda, Rosberg and Senna - all world champions and two of them were reigning world champions at the time when he did

and also Prost before being teamed up with Senna only lost to his teammate in his rookie season 1980

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in 1988 Prost would have still be considered at his peak and more importantly considered No 1 in the Mclaren and for Senna to come along and blow him away with his incredible pace and intensity like he did and drive Prost out of Mclaren is something that no one would have expected to happen

I should add Senna did become world champion in his first season with Mclaren as well .

The politics at Ferrari with Schumacher during the early 2000's has not helped his reputation to say he is better than Senna. I say that because surely Schumacher could have handled Barrichello without all the team politics and prove he was a better driver on the track than waiting for the pitwall to manipulate races
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
In 1988 Prost would have still be considered at his peak and more importantly considered No 1 in the Mclaren and for Senna to come along and blow him away with his incredible pace and intensity like he did and drive Prost out of Mclaren is something that no one would have expected to happen.
He won the title by 3 points in 1988, then lost it by 16 points in 1989. That does not seem to me like Prost was "blown away".

The politics at Ferrari with Schumacher during the early 2000's has not helped his reputation to say he is better than Senna. I say that because surely Schumacher could have handled Barrichello without all the team politics and prove he was a better driver on the track than waiting for the pitwall to manipulate races
I think this manipulating races think is a little bit unfair on Schumacher. Yes, he leapfrogged him in Austria, but how many times in the five years together did Ferrari actually deem it necessary to pull Barrichello out of the way? It didn't happen often enough to justify the hand wringing that followed. The times he beat Schumacher overwhelmingly tended to be at the end of a season or when Schumacher needed less than a win to take the title.

Schumacher never beat a really good driver in the same car, although it could be argued that he probably beat Hakkinen in 2000 in an inferior car. If you slot him back into the 1997 standings:
[COLOR=#0000ff]VIL 81[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]MSC 78[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#0000ff]FRE 42[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#808080]COU 36[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ccff]ALE 36[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ccff]BER 27[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#808080]HAK 27[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]IRV 24[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ffff00]FIS 20[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000080]PAN 16[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]
[/COLOR]
He was 3 points off the title which in his team-mates hands was only 4 points better off than Giancarlo Fisichella's Jordan and only 8 better than a Ligier driver who missed half the season!

The cheating and in-house political favouritism undoubtedly casts a shadow over some of his achievements, but certainly is not enough to split him from Senna (of all people!). I can't believe Schumacher's generation was weaker than any other, I just expect that they were made to look poor by competing with Schumacher.
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
He won the title by 3 points in 1988, then lost it by 16 points in 1989. That does not seem to me like Prost was "blown away".



I think this manipulating races think is a little bit unfair on Schumacher. Yes, he leapfrogged him in Austria, but how many times in the five years together did Ferrari actually deem it necessary to pull Barrichello out of the way? It didn't happen often enough to justify the hand wringing that followed. The times he beat Schumacher overwhelmingly tended to be at the end of a season or when Schumacher needed less than a win to take the title.

Schumacher never beat a really good driver in the same car, although it could be argued that he probably beat Hakkinen in 2000 in an inferior car. If you slot him back into the 1997 standings:
[COLOR=#0000ff]VIL 81[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]MSC 78[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#0000ff]FRE 42[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#808080]COU 36[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ccff]ALE 36[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ccff]BER 27[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#808080]HAK 27[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]IRV 24[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ffff00]FIS 20[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000080]PAN 16[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]
[/COLOR]
He was 3 points off the title which in his team-mates hands was only 4 points better off than Giancarlo Fisichella's Jordan and only 8 better than a Ligier driver who missed half the season!

The cheating and in-house political favouritism undoubtedly casts a shadow over some of his achievements, but certainly is not enough to split him from Senna (of all people!). I can't believe Schumacher's generation was weaker than any other, I just expect that they were made to look poor by competing with Schumacher.
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Okay Senna cheated in Japan 1990 and Schumacher in Jerez 1997.

Worse was for Schumacher he was actually getting praise if he won the 1997 title against Villeneuve who made a real mess of having the best car with the spate of errors and accidents he had that was until Michael did that dirty move and you could see the whole paddock shaking their heads with that.

I agree Barrichello only took crumbs left whenever he won for Ferrari because usually Schumacher was out of the race or in trouble but overall in a straight fight without the politics he would have beaten Rubens without the politics needed to do so.

Ferrari did make most of the rules and tools available to them then than others but ultimately if he had just raced Rubens throughout the season he surely would have come out on top each time without some pitwall interference or strategy calls etc
 
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