Ayrton Senna

Today (19 August 2011) "Senna" opens in Toronto and i'm taking off early from work to catch a matinee' viewing. This is about as good a time as any to open this thread...

From Prost's thread:

This has to be said and i'll say it again here...

The director of the movie "Senna" - Asif Kapadia - was on a Motor Sport Magazine podcast with then McLaren manager Jo Ramirez (who, unusually, was a trusted friend of both Senna and Prost)...and in the podcast he said something like this:

(Paraphrasing) "We had access to all of Bernies archives...and when we looked at the video of the cars coming out of Tosa at Imola, Schumacher's Benetton was the only car which exhibited unusual signs of, *ahem*, traction control...even the other Benetton didn't have it..."

Go to the Motor Sport Magazine website and click on 'podcasts' and listen for yourselves (June 15th podcast, I think).

Why do I bring it up? Well Senna suspected Schumacher's Benetton B194 had TC/LC and was driving out of his skin to make up for the difference. He noticed that it sounded and behaved differently (to even Verstappen's B194) while he watched them circulating from the wall after retiring at Aida (the second race of the year).

I don't need to go on about it, but you get the point.

Where does Prost come into this? Well, the Podcast goes into how Senna was on the telephone with Prost during that time talking, among other things, about that precise matter.

If Senna said that Schumi's car was using a form of TC, then personally I'd believe him. Prost believed Senna too. There aren't exactly any better qualified people to know such a thing. One thing I must say, however, is that despite the fact that Senna was trying to make up the difference through his own driving to keep up with Schumacher, I don't think this had anything to do with his death, something that a few twisted people (in my opinion) seem to think. Tamburello is not a corner that should worry an F1 car, even back then.

There was no greater expert on the sights and sounds of a Formula One car at Aida that day than Senna himself...And if his expert ears and eyes noted that only Schumacher's B194 sounded and reacted like it had traction control then i'm going to believe it. Period.

As per the accident at Tamburello...well, the saftey car that day wasn't exactly a Mercedes-Benz AMG...I believe it was an Opel and, as a result, a bit 'too' slow. The tyre pressures dropped significantly and that would have affected the ride height. Tamburello had a few bumps and when they went flat out again right after the SC pulled in, there's a reasonable chance the ride height wasn't what Senna would have imagined it to be.

[Safety Cars were a newer phenomenon in Formula One back then too, by the way. They were first properly introduced the year before (1993) and used only in two Grand Prix races.

They made many rule changes after that race, including making sure Safety Cars were faster so as to ensure tyre pressures didn't fall off significantly.]

Regardless, what are CTA members' memories and thoughts of Senna?

Mine were mixed. I thought he was immense and the fastest since Villeneuve ... but a bully. I was never his biggest fan primarily because his on track tactics at times bordered on insanity. Whereas Villeneuve risked his own life mainly, Senna didn't seem to have a problem with risking other drivers' lives while he was taking chances with his own.

Having said that, i'd rate the Brazilian thus All Time:

1= Senna
1= Prost
3. Clark
4. Fangio
5. Schumacher
6= Stewart
6= Moss

What are your thoughts and memories of the man and the driver?

 

[mjo]

Here is a tribute to him:

It is a great piece of television, thoughtfully done.

 

[gethinceri]

Thanks for that mjo, for 12 minutes and 56 seconds it stopped me thinking of Jeremy Clarkson as a vacuous twit (other vowels are available).

 

[Gert]

Thanks for that Ray, for 12 minutes and 56 seconds it stopped me thinking of Jeremy Clarkson as a vacuous twit (other vowels are available).

It's actually mjo

 

[gethinceri]

It's actually mjo

Edited, thanks.
Sorry mjo.

 

[KekeTheKing]

3.) Managing to win in Brazil in 1991 despite having to drive the last nine laps with the car stuck in sixth gear and him having to hold it there most of the time as it kept jumping out. He was only 27 seconds in the lead before it happened, and fainted with the pain about 30 seconds after crossing the line. In my view, it is even more of a miracle than the Donnington race, and almost on a par with understanding Mr Dennis

Not to diminish that drive in any way, shape, or form, it was truly remarkable, but the ultimate saving grace for Ayrton that day was the miracle from the sky, raindrops.

If it did not start raining with 4-5 laps to go, there is very little doubt that Patrese would have caught Senna easily. At least twice, Senna went past the Pit-Wall with his finger pointed at the clouds in an effort to have the race stopped at that point.

Just to be clear, this is not a criticism.

 

[VanChallis]

Not to diminish that drive in any way, shape, or form, it was truly remarkable, but the ultimate saving grace for Ayrton that day was the miracle from the sky, raindrops.

If it did not start raining with 4-5 laps to go, there is very little doubt that Patrese would have caught Senna easily. At least twice, Senna went past the Pit-Wall with his finger pointed at the clouds in an effort to have the race stopped at that point.

Just to be clear, this is not a criticism.

Yep, the rain just did enough to slow down the amount that Patrese was catching him, but as you said, it doesn't take anything away from the fact that it was arguably one of the greatest drives in F1 history, especially in my F1 watching lifetime.

 

[FB]

It's not as impressive as Schumie's win in Spain in ???? when the car was stuck in 5th for most of the race.

 

[RasputinLives]

Yeah I'd go for Schumie's 94 Spain win too - although I'm sure someone will try to tell me it shouldn't be counted because he had some sort of nintendo gameboy device on board or something.

 

[VanChallis]

Personally I'd still say Senna's was more of an achievement. Schumi's was incredible, don't get me wrong, but Senna had a manual gearbox that he had to hold in gear himself for most of the time, and it's surely better to be stuck in 5th than 6th, in terms of lap speed. Oh, and also, didn't Schumi finish 2nd in that race, behind Hill?

 

[FB]

Oh, and also, didn't Schumi finish 2nd in that race, behind Hill?

Quite right, my bad.

While Williams notched up their first victory of the season, and first after the death of Ayrton Senna, championship leader Michael Schumacher finished a strong second, despite being stuck in fifth gear for most of the race. Knowing that he had a major problem, he managed to make a pitstop (and get away from the pit stop in 5th gear), and as the race unfolded gave nothing to the leading Hill's pace. He changed his driving style around the twisty track, finding new trajectories and corner apexes. His past experience as a World Sports Car driver for team Sauber helped him control the car effectively despite being stuck in one gear.

Courtesy of the Wiki page on this race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Spanish_Grand_Prix

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

One of Senna's greatest achievements - in my opinion - was to wipe the floor with Schumacher's bum using a customer Ford engine which, by contract, was 2 specs behind the works Ford engine being used by Ford's Number 1 team Benetton.

That year, 1993, Senna crushed Schumacher 6 wins to 1 inspite of an inferior engine.

Senna even travellled to Detroit in order to convince the Ford Motor Company board to allow McLaren to use the same power plant as Benetton.

Awsome!

 

[teabagyokel]

I do notice that McLaren beat Benetton in the WCC that year despite Andretti, so I don't think that is quite so brilliant!

 

[RasputinLives]

and Schumacher was starting only his second full season as an F1 driver

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I do notice that McLaren beat Benetton in the WCC that year despite Andretti, so I don't think that is quite so brilliant!

McLaren's WCC positioning was largely down to Senna's 6 victories. If you don't think 6 wins will help your WCC points, then I don't know what will.

You can look at numbers ... but I actually saw the races.

Schumacher had only 1 win...and he was using the works engine which, by contract, was 2 Steps ahead/superior to Senna's.

Let's see Hamilton or Alonso or Vettel beating someone who's got a contractually superior engine by 2 iterations.

Senna did it with pure talent...a talent which was superior to Schumacher's.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

and Schumacher was starting only his second full season as an F1 driver

By Belgium he was starting his 3rd year.

Hamilton needed only one-third of his first season to lead the WDC ... and he needed only two-thirds of his first season to dismantle Alonso mentally...and, then, he won the WDC in his 2nd year.

Vettel scored 4 wins and challenged Button to second place in the WDC in only his 2nd full season.

Gilles Villeneuve nearly won the WDC in his 2nd full season, scoring the same amount of wins as WDC Scheckter, his teammate.

Jacques Villeneuve won the WDC in his 2nd season inspite of cheater Schumacher's blatent attempt to crash him out of the final race.

I don't get your point. What is it?

 

[teabagyokel]

I don't think it is impossible that Benetton did not produce as good a car as McLaren, thats all I'm saying.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I don't think it is impossible that Benetton did not produce as good a car as McLaren, thats all I'm saying.

Ok.

Cheers.

 

[Gert]

I watched this tribute and was touched by it.

 

[RasputinLives]

I don't get your point. What is it?

My point is Ray that unlike in computer games drivers do not stay at a constent level of skill throughout their careers and whilst on paper Senna's 'slaying' of Schumacher in 93 looks amazing this was not the Schumahcer of 2002 or 2004 - this wasn't even the Schumacher of 1994. The truth is (as you know really) the bigger talking point of that season would have been if Senna had finished behind Schumacher.

I'm sure you'll have some logic to prove me wrong or something but you are kidding yourself. Its like me saying that one of the greatest achievements in Mika Hakkeniens career was out pacing Nigel Mansell in the 1995 Mclaren

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I'm sure you'll have some logic to prove me wrong or something but you are kidding yourself. Its like me saying that one of the greatest achievements in Mika Hakkeniens career was out pacing Nigel Mansell in the 1995 Mclaren

Mika having the measure of Mansell in 1995 was hardly any kind of achievement.

What are you talking about?

You're not making any sense.

Senna crushed Schumacher in 1993 inspite of inferior equipment. That's what we're discussing...not how fat and out of shape and out of conditioning Nigel was in his the final Grand Prix race of his career.