Vettel 256, Alonso 256, Webber 256

[teabagyokel]

In 1988 Senna almost pushed Prost in the wall at Estoril: so I guess he's not a worthy champion either?

My problem with Senna's Championship in 1988 is simply that he scored less points than Prost!

But I'm not going to be amongst the 'worthy champion' brigade. If you win you're on the list and you've got car #1 next year, I don't think it matters a sod to anyone who claims you're worthy.

The implication of an unworthy champion is that there is a better claimant who has failed to score as many points as the champion, which is nonsense since he's failed to score as many points as the champion.

If Vettel were in one of the lesser teams, we'd probably all be saying he's a liability and should lose his superlicense (and that's before we mention his incidents with the safety car where he let it get too far ahead and earned a drive through penalty).

No, no, no. He's not Yuji Ide! And he's not crashed nearly as much as Vitaly Petrov or Vitantonio Liuzzi and I don't actually see any complaints about their superlicences!

 

[Wombcat]

My problem with Senna's Championship in 1988 is simply that he scored less points than Prost!

Now that's a different discussion.

But I'm not going to be amongst the 'worthy champion' brigade. If you win you're on the list and you've got car #1 next year, I don't think it matters a sod to anyone who claims you're worthy.

The implication of an unworthy champion is that there is a better claimant who has failed to score as many points as the champion, which is nonsense since he's failed to score as many points as the champion.

Which was exactly my point. So we agree.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

teabagyokel said:
My problem with Senna's Championship in 1988 is simply that he scored less points than Prost!Now that's a different discussion.
But I'm not going to be amongst the 'worthy champion' brigade. If you win you're on the list and you've got car #1 next year, I don't think it matters a sod to anyone who claims you're worthy.

The implication of an unworthy champion is that there is a better claimant who has failed to score as many points as the champion, which is nonsense since he's failed to score as many points as the champion.Which was exactly my point. So we agree.

So at least three of us are in agreement about what makes a worthy champion; does that constitute a consensus?

And just to add, regarding Vettel;
Yes, he was daft to crash into his teammate at Turkey, but he came out of it worse with no points;
Yes, he was daft to turn into Alonso at Silverstone, but he came out of it worse with no points; and
Yes, he was daft to crash into Button at Spa, but he came out of it with no points.

Was all of that worse than these, from a 2x World Champion?
Crashing out in P3 at Monaco, leading to having to start from the pitlane
Making a jump start in China, incurring a drive-through penalty
Passing Kubica at Silverstone by cutting the chicane, not conceding the place and incurring another penalty
Receiving 7 'free' points from his teammate, who he was unable to pass by the normal means

Or these, from his teammate?
Crashing into the back of Hamilton (at the second attempt) at his home race?
Crashing into the back of Kovalainen at Valencia
Publicly accusing his employers of favouring his teammate over the ream radio
Crashing into the back of Hamilton in Singapore
Crashing into the wall at Korea,then careering backwards across the track and taking out an innocent Rosberg

So, if Sebastien were to win the WDC this weekend, in spite of all his incidents and on top of all his mechanical problems, he would be a deserving champion, as he would have the most points!

 

[fat jez]

My point, is that if he wins the WDC, he won't have learnt from any of those mistakes and thus will continue to make them as he doesn't see the implications of doing it.

 

[FB]

I'd rather a driver made mistakes through exuberance or over enthusiasm (which I believe is Vettel's problem rather than something fundamentally wrong with his driving) than the cynical way Senna and Schumacher won titles...

 

[fat jez]

I'd rather a driver made mistakes through exuberance or over enthusiasm (which I believe is Vettel's problem rather than something fundamentally wrong with his driving) than the cynical way Senna and Schumacher won titles...

Don't get me wrong, I definitely would not want to see that sort of behaviour. But there were several times where Vettel made mistakes which went without comment from Horner. Although that perhaps suggests a certain immaturity in Horner's management style...

 

[FB]

Fat Jez said:

Although that perhaps suggests a certain immaturity in Horner's management style...

Don't think you'll see much argument from me on that score. He can be as miopic as Arsene Wenger when he wants to be.

 

[fat jez]

Let's put it another way, I would have no problem with Vettel being WDC if I thought it had been fair between him and Webber. I'm sure if Webber had been driving into Button or his team mate, he'd have had his arse kicked.

 

[RickD]

I have a problem with Vettel being the WDC simply due to the fact that he can't seem to overtake. I can't see how someone so utterly rubbish at trying to overtake can become the World Champion!

 

[Grizzly]

Chad Stewarthill raises a great point that Harks back to my thinking in the Champion Vs Champion thread. Usually we start the year with 4 or 5 possible contenders, but only one, maybe two, actually emerge as the real contenders after 5 or 6 races.

This year, no one has really emerged or shone through IMO as champion, All the top runners have had several fault/non-fault retirements and non-points finishes.

Best championship ever? or poorest champion drive ever? RBR should be the ONLY contenders for WDC IMO, quite how they have managed to be trailing into the last race is utterly (and ill quote Vettel here)

I think when we saw both McL drivers at the top mid season showed champion status, the team was no where on pace, yet they (the whole team) capitalised on every single opportunity up until they began retiring and smashing cars up...

I don't like the guy, but if its between the two RBR drivers or Alonso to be champion, based on his performance in a slower in most cases car, it has to be Alonso. Id still rather see Webber do it though lol

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

I believe that Hamilton's demise in Singapore was Webber's fault; when added to his Australian GP shenanigens I think Mark has cost Lewis 17 points this season, while gaining 3 for himself.
Were it not for those two incidents, the standings might now be Alonso 246, Hamilton 239, Webber 235, so I'm afraid I can't wish the championship on Webber; it would have to be either Vettel or Alonso for me.

But I still dream that Vettel turns right into Webber at Abu Dhabi, taking them both out, then Alonso's engine expires on the last lap with Lewis overtaking him on the last corner to win the race and the title!

Think what a record that would be; two World Drivers' crowns, both won on the last corner of the last lap of the last race of the season!

 

[Wombcat]

I believe that Hamilton's demise in Singapore was Webber's fault; when added to his Australian GP shenanigens I think Mark has cost Lewis 17 points this season, while gaining 3 for himself.
Were it not for those two incidents, the standings might now be Alonso 246, Hamilton 239, Webber 235, so I'm afraid I can't wish the championship on Webber; it would have to be either Vettel or Alonso for me.

But I still dream that Vettel turns right into Webber at Abu Dhabi, taking them both out, then Alonso's engine expires on the last lap with Lewis overtaking him on the last corner to win the race and the title!

Think what a record that would be; two World Drivers' crowns, both won on the last corner of the last lap of the last race of the season!

And both by one point.

Although in your scenario Alonso has to be out of the points, so there have to be 9 drivers unlapped.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Wombcat said:
Although in your scenario Alonso has to be out of the points, so there have to be 9 drivers unlapped.

Ok, so Vettel and Webber don't clash on lap one, but four laps from the end. The Safety Car is deployed for three laps allowing the field to close up, thus ensuring that at least nine cars are on the same lap at the chequered flag.

 

[teabagyokel]

Lewis would only be 3 points behind if it weren't for his failure in Spain - food for thought?

 

[RickD]

Lewis would only be 3 points behind if it weren't for his failure in Spain - food for thought?

Jenson could still be in the Championship and only within a few points if it wasn't fior the engineer in Monaco and Vettel being an idiot and taking him out in Spa.

Food for thought..

 

[ATL11]

A spanish Newspaper Marca have posted a whizzy tool to help you understand who'll be champion as the race progresses:

http://www.marca.com/2010/11/07/motor/f ... 1289476212

 

[ATL11]

Just used it to cover another potential result:

Hamilton 1st - 247pts
Vettel 3rd - 246pts
Webber 6th - 246pts
Alonso DNF - 246pts

I'm thinking first corner crash takes out Alonso, and damages both Red Bulls, who can only get 3rd & 6th after limping home with rigid front wings.....& Hamilton overtake Glock in the final corner of the final lap to take the title...

 

[ZakspeedYakspeed]

Just used it to cover another potential result:

Hamilton 1st - 247pts
Vettel 3rd - 246pts
Webber 6th - 246pts
Alonso DNF - 246pts

I'm thinking first corner crash takes out Alonso, and damages both Red Bulls, who can only get 3rd & 6th after limping home with rigid front wings.....& Hamilton overtake Glock in the final corner of the final lap to take the title...

I am thinking this could be more likely

1st Lewie (demonstative drive)
3rd Vettel (out brakes himself, over a ripple strip, punctures tyre, pits and drops down order)
5th Webber (manages a mysterious "engine temperature" issue...again)
DNF Alonso (in a stream of Ferrari smoke after 30 laps)


WDC Webber 248
2nd Lewie 247
3rd Alonso 246
4th Vettel 246

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

ATL11,
How on earth does Glock get into the lead?
Oh I know, he's made a last-minute transfer to Mercedes after Mr Schumacher retires with a sore neck.

 

[Brogan]

A lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread

The scenario will be the same as most recent races.
Vettel and Webber will disappear, Alonso will be in a comfortable 3rd and Hamilton will try and hang on to 4th.

Near the end of the race, Vettel and Webber will switch positions. I'm looking forward to seeing how they manage it or whether they will be as blatant as Ferrari.

"Alonso has 5 more points than Webber. Can you confirm you understand the message?"