Grand Prix 2024 Las Vegas Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

we are back to LAAAAAAAAAS VEGAS, NEVADA this week, (its hard to say without pretending to be bruce buffer),reading i was captivated by the history of Las Vegas, which is similar in size to Glasgow & Dublin. Globally, it's relatively new, having been only founded as a city in 1905, just 4 years after Queen Victoria's death. It didn't begin to develop into the city we recognize today until 1931. By that time, the world had already hosted ten Olympic Games. Las Vegas truly began to thrive after World War II.

I believe we all entered last year with a degree of skepticism, suspecting it would be all style & no substance. The cringe inducing opening ceremony, the drain cover issue that forced fans out of FP2 due to time curfews, & the terrible TV camera shots that need improvement this year certainly didn't help matters.

but once we got to qualifying & the race. i thought it was a bright spot in the most depressing season for 20 years, a circuit with a great challenge, love the huge back straight. cold weather making drivers have to work harder as you have to hunt for the grip & just ask Max verstappen on whether drivers enjoyed the race

Of course, we aren't here solely for F1; however, i could argue that for 3/4 of the races we attend, the locations aren't chosen for their love of F1. They are selected to put themselves on the map or because they represent an important business market for the manufacturers. & for Liberty this is an opportunity they couldn't turn down, to get a race the 1 of world's most visited tourist destination. The self billed the Entertainment Capital of the World was no brainer & if we get races like last yr i can see this turning into a success,

you know what with Vegas repuaution & most of it self billed, with music & gambling what goes under the radar. is arguably they are biggest sporting american city Boxing, NHL, NFL, UFC, WNBA + last years NFL superbowl, all situated in Vegas. then add to that list that NBA & Baseball are on there way in the near future. MLS Highly touted . so F1 is a good fit in that respect

& absoultely love this picture taken from a plane, during the weekend last yr

on this week Max could secure his 4th successive F1 world championship title with qatar & abu dhabi to spare. after all but winning it following that masterful drive in Brazil. Max needs to finish the race 60 points or more clear of Norris, which in simple terms. if max finishes ahead of norris or both retire. he wins & in more complicated terms

 

[The Artist.....]

which is a shame because i dont know the problem is. F1 for me has never been healthier. that was a another entertaining race. 5 different constructors on the podium the last 3 races.

whats the biggest gripes of nearly last 25yrs. F1 is boring, it's predictable. 1 man dominates. if it wasnt schumacher its vettel, its mercedes & then verstappen. & we know we are realistic / high expectations. but F1 has never been so competitive in its near 75yrs. we got 3 way constructors title battle for 1st time that i can remember maybe 2010? & today 3 things happened in F1 1st time i its history

• never before have 7 drivers have won multiple races in 1 season
• never before have 4 constructors won at least 4 races each
• never before have 4 different constructors finished 1-2

ingredients for 2025 mean it could be even better & brilliant season

I think that the main problems with F1 are:

1. The calendar has passed saturation point. There are too many races, and...
2. Many of them are either in places that have no F1 tradition, or in sterile Tilke dromes (and held with gimmicks such as night races).
   1. Mistakes are not punished - drivers can just sail off into the run off area without even losing a place, let alone having to retire
   2. Because of the over-saturation of technology, mistakes are far less likely.
3. There's too much about F1 that's artificial.
   1. Compulsory pitstops removes much of the intrigue. It used to be that drivers could make a choice - either make no stops and use harder tyres, or make a stop (or multiple stops) and risk having to overtake. The fact that pitstops now take less than 2 seconds is also a problem.
   2. DRS. I know that DRS was a solution to a problem - that cars could not follow closely and overtake, but is DRS really the answer?
4. The cars just look like trucks. Even in the early 90s, the cars looked nimble, and "alive" during races.
   1. Drivers cannot push, because of the fuel limit, and the fact that the tyres fall to pieces if you push them beyond dawdling pace
   2. The cars are so big and heavy (relatively). Right now, F1 cars look like someone has brought a Harley Davidson to a trials bike competition.
   3. Drivers don't visibly make a difference any more. In the 80s and 90s, you'd have cases where drivers would qualify more than 1 second faster than their team-mate. In those circumstances, it would be a case that one driver had taken the car by the scruff of the neck, and lifted it to a higher plane. Think of Nigel Mansell against Riccardo Patrese in 1992, or Ayrton Senna versus any of his team-mates. People see the grid being close together as being a good thing. I see it as a bad thing, as all of the drivers are able to extract the maximum of their package, and so the driver no longer makes a difference. The only counter of this is Max Verstappen - but this could simply because Sergio Perez just isn't that good.
5. Over-professionalisation.
6. Sky, Sky, and more Sky. To watch F1, you have to commit to paying at least £20 a month. However, you don't get any option but to pay for all of the sports. You don't like Football? Tough. You don't like snooker - well you're getting it anyway.
7. The sport "looks" too easy. The fact that drivers can come in, and almost immediately be competitive is a problem. In the past, drivers had to put in an apprenticeship, but in the current era, if a driver comes in to a good team, the expectation is that they will have the capability to win immediately. It used to be astounding that "a driver in their first full season of F1" (Murray Walker, thank you) had scored points, or managed to get on the podium.
8. Older drivers never need to retire. Lewis Hamilton is 39, Fernando Alonso is 43. In previous eras, they would have been seen as far too old to continue taking the risks in the sport.

Finally, money dominates. Think of the stars of the 1980s. Many of them had made personal sacrifices to get into F1. Nigel Mansell had to put his home at risk to race in F3. Niki Lauda took out a bank-loan to get himself into F2. F1 is now dominated by people from rich families, or people whose parents had made the sacrifices, some to the extent that they buy an F1 team for their child.

 

[Il_leone]

A very subdued Mclaren performance so we still got a constructors fight

For all the criticism this was a great race

Hamilton could have won the race but still was not expecting Mercedes to get fastest after some very poor races

 

[cider_and_toast]

F1 is boring, it's predictable. 1 man dominates

20 out of the last 25 championships have been won by just 4 drivers.

Apart from Fangio in the 1950's when he could change teams in mid season and cars mid race to ensure he remained competitive and could win, the only drivers to win 3 or more championships in a row have all been since 2020.

Having different drivers win in a season is useless if the same driver wins the title year on year until the next major rule change.

F1 is boring, it's predictable and 1 man dominates.

 

[The Artist.....]

Apart from Fangio in the 1950's when he could change teams in mid season and cars mid race to ensure he remained competitive and could win, the only drivers to win 3 or more championships in a row have all been since 2020.

I think you mean since 2000 - I had been thinking about this myself... Before 1985, it was almost unheard of for drivers to even win two in a row, with only three drivers achieving this before Prost and Senna came along.

• Verstappen - 4 in a row 2021 - 2024
• Hamilton - 4 in a row 2017 - 2020, 2 in a row 2014 - 15
• Vettel - 4 in a row 2010 - 2013
• Alonso - 2 in a row 2005 - 06
• Schumacher - 5 in a row 2000 - 04, 2 in a row 1994 - 95
• Hakkinen - 2 in a row 1998 - 99
• Senna - 2 in a row 1990 - 91
• Prost* - 2 in a row 1985 - 86
• Brabham - 2 in a row 1959 - 60
• Fangio - 4 in a row 1954 - 57
• Ascari - 2 in a row 1952 - 53.

*Prost's back to back titles is a little bit of an anomaly, as the '86 title was very much won against the odds. Williams effectively lost this title, rather than Prost winning it - so this was an occasion where the second title was a bit of a surprise.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Yeah, sorry, 2000.

Exactly

 

[Christoon]

A very subdued Mclaren performance so we still got a constructors fight

For all the criticism this was a great race

Hamilton could have won the race but still was not expecting Mercedes to get fastest after some very poor races

Yes, it was a good race and I expect WCC fight to go to Abu Dhabi. The gap is now 24 points between McLaren and Ferrari.

 

[F1Brits_90]

Yes, it was a good race and I expect WCC fight to go to Abu Dhabi. The gap is now 24 points between McLaren and Ferrari.

mclaren will be getting very worried & qatar is must for them if ferrari get that down to 12-15pts they could chuck both away. although if ferrari do win the constructors. the stat will continue that no F1 team has won a constructors title after adrian newey has left them.

 

[F1Brits_90]

20 out of the last 25 championships have been won by just 4 drivers.

Apart from Fangio in the 1950's when he could change teams in mid season and cars mid race to ensure he remained competitive and could win, the only drivers to win 3 or more championships in a row have all been since 2020.

Having different drivers win in a season is useless if the same driver wins the title year on year until the next major rule change.

F1 is boring, it's predictable and 1 man dominates.

i think that 2020 thing comes down to 2 of the greats having average & mediocre teammates. if they had stronger competition from within couldve been different

i think this season is alot like Hamiltons season 2017 -19 where he has overperformed his car but from outside it looks more simple than it has been. as Vettel could & should have won some of them but ferrari found new ways to throw it away. & i think it has been predictable but it has changed this year, nobody in F1 predicted mercedes pole & mercedes 1-2 this weekend. next season we go into a season where 7 drivers can win the title

 

[Il_leone]

Ferrari seems to find ways of imploding

first when Sainz was getting caught and needing to box but instead was ordered to let Leclerc through before being told the team were not ready when he went back onto the track

secondly Sainz flew past Leclerc who apparently was told not to challenge

Now murmurs Sainz was not meant to overtake and Leclerc has thrown the gloves off

Raging Ferrari drivers hint at internal issues and demand explanation

“I don’t like using the radio to complain. I don’t like using the media to criticise"

www.crash.net

 

[F1Brits_90]

The Artist..... there alot of points i do agree with.
pirelli have been disaster to f1
the Batteries have made the cars far too heavy, interesting that BTCC have ditched the batteries at the early opportunity & 100% sustainable fuel V8/10 cant come soon enough.
i would say that for every abu dhabi & miami we do have a silverstone, spa, monza. some of the new circuits have been decent albeit on street tracks
i would like to see F1 back on Free to air, even if it was shared where sky F1 show everything & Channel 4 just the Race

1. The sport "looks" too easy. The fact that drivers can come in, and almost immediately be competitive is a problem. In the past, drivers had to put in an apprenticeship, but in the current era, if a driver comes in to a good team, the expectation is that they will have the capability to win immediately. It used to be astounding that "a driver in their first full season of F1" (Murray Walker, thank you) had scored points, or managed to get on the podium.
2. Older drivers never need to retire. Lewis Hamilton is 39, Fernando Alonso is 43. In previous eras, they would have been seen as far too old to continue taking the risks in the sport.

could you say that F1 drivers are more talented & more prepared than they have ever been. & more strength in depth. because you look at the conveyor belt of talent since F2 & F3 were relaunched. F3000 champions 1985 - 2004 in its history only produced 3 F1 race winners, (Panis, Alesi & Montoya) & arguably its most successful driver was Bourdais but for Champcar. whereas The Modern Equivalent has produced two world champions and seven race winners, as well as notable talents such as Hulkenberg, Grosjean, Norris, Albon, and Perez. Also i think Hamilton changed the game when he shouldve won the title in rookie year in 2007

& i would say that on older drivers, isnt that just as diets get better & drivers since schumacher are fitter than they have every been & ages that would be a ceiling arent anymore. look at ronnie o'sullivan in the snooker he looks younger at 46 than dennis taylor did at 36. also i wouldnt say it was anew thing for drivers to still be excellent in later years. schumacher took pole at 43 Mansell won at 41, Reutemann won at 39 & Hill, Piquet, Andretti, Prost won at 38. but for the tragic accident i couldve seen senna going into his late 30s

 

[FB]

I had a power cut 15 laps from the end so I had to watch the highlights later in the day. It wasn't a bad race, has it's moment. The main problem for F1 in 2024 is that there was no chance of anyone other than Max winning the title after the first three races had been run so the rest of the season sort of didn't matter.

 

[cider_and_toast]

could you say that F1 drivers are more talented & more prepared than they have ever been. & more strength in depth

No, you can't say that. Judging talent across era's is almost impossible to do for one thing.

As for judging strength in depth, I'd say that's even more difficult. Take a look at qualifying over the last decade, how often do you see 2 Red Bulls followed by 2 Mercs, followed by 2 Ferraris followed by 2 McLarens for example? How can we judge strength in depth when the ants line up two by two?

Also, look at those mid 60's races when you had Clark, Hill, Surtees, Stewart, Brabham, McLaren, Gurney, Hulme, Rindt, Bandini and many others, all racing on the same grid. There's 13 past or future world championship wins on that list alone.

 

[cider_and_toast]

We've all discussed our theories behind our arguments on numerous occasions but there is one single overriding factor and it's identical to football. It all comes down to money.

The first Premier League season was 1992-93. in over thirty years since then, while there have been 7 different winners, the premier League title has been retained by the following season on 7 occasions. To find 7 occasions prior to the Premier League you have to cover the period 1932 to 1992 so effectively twice as long.

Between 1992-93, and 2023-24, only Blackburn, Leicester and Liverpool have won single titles, the remainder have all been won by Chelsea, Arsenal and the two Manchester clubs and all 4 have had at least 1 back to back title.

You see exactly the same effect happen in F1 following dear old Bernie's 1998 Concord agreement where the FIA basically gave him all of the commercial rights to do with as he pleased.

All that money flooded in and any sign of competition went out the other way.

 

[F1Brits_90]

You see exactly the same effect happen in F1 following dear old Bernie's 1998 Concord agreement where the FIA basically gave him all of the commercial rights to do with as he pleased.

All that money flooded in and any sign of competition went out the other way.

but in the 10yrs before that. we had domination by mclaren, then williams, then benetton, then williams & it likely only schumachers brilliance that gave us a title fight in 97 & 98

on the other point. mclaren wouldve won 4 in a row if senna or prost hadn't been there

 

[Il_leone]

I had a power cut 15 laps from the end so I had to watch the highlights later in the day. It wasn't a bad race, has it's moment. The main problem for F1 in 2024 is that there was no chance of anyone other than Max winning the title after the first three races had been run so the rest of the season sort of didn't matter.

I think if Hamilton was in the Mclaren not Norris the challenge would have been stiffer. To me Norris lost it in Austria, Montreal , Silverstone, Monza and Spa.

 

[Chris Tea]

I think if Hamilton was in the Mclaren not Norris the challenge would have been stiffer. To me Norris lost it in Austria, Montreal , Silverstone, Monza and Spa.

And I think Max could have won it in a McLaren or Ferrari... He's so good this year.

 

[cider_and_toast]

but in the 10yrs before that. we had domination by mclaren, then williams, then benetton, then williams & it likely only schumachers brilliance that gave us a title fight in 97 & 98

on the other point. mclaren wouldve won 4 in a row if senna or prost hadn't been there

88 was an exception due to McLaren having the two very best drivers on the grid, with the very, very best engine (only handful of teams used Turbos that year), and the very best chassis. But Senna and Prost went at each other hammer and tongs for season after season.

The fact is, Senna and Prost raced each other. No F1 team would risk a driver pairing like that in this day and age. It would be the same as having Verstappen and Hamilton as teammates in 2022.

All of the examples you give are teams, we're talking about drivers. You've already demonstrated it yourself that in those days a great driver in a poor car could make a bigger difference. Sennas performance in a far, far inferior McLaren to Prost's Williams in 1993 for example.

In terms of championship battles, in the 11 seasons from 1988 to 1998, only 3 finished before the penultimate race. 92 finished with 5 races to go (Mansell), 93 and 95 finished with 2 races to go (Prost and Schumacher respectively).

88, 89, 90 and 91 all finished at the penultimate race while 94, 96, 97 and 98 all went down to the wire.

Contrast that with the last 11 seasons (2014 to 2024). While 3 went down to the wire (2014, 2016 and we all remember 2021). The remaining 8 seasons were all wrapped up with 2 or more races to go and 4 of those with 3 or more to go. (2023 finished the same way 1992 did with 5 to go).

To me, it doesn't matter which way you slice the pie, F1 has gotten less and less competitive with teams dominating for long periods before a major rule change and someone else taking over for a run.

It's just a fact.

 

[F1Brits_90]

No, you can't say that. Judging talent across era's is almost impossible to do for one thing.

maybe but i was just looking at the 2nd tier champions. as they were supposed to be the stars of tomorrow & there is the distinctive shift in repuations of each list. F3000 Produced 4 quality Champions & GP2/F2 produced id 11, (12 if Pourchaire got a chance)

1985	C Danner	2005	N Rosberg
1986	I Capelli	2006	L Hamilton
1987	S Modena	2007	T Glock
1988	R Moreno	2008	G Pantano
1989	J Alesi	2009	N Hulkenberg
1990	E Comas	2010	P Maldonado
1991	C Fittipaldi	2011	R Grosjean
1992	L Badoer	2012	D Valsecchi
1993	O Panis	2013	F Leimer
1994	JP Boullion	2014	J Palmer
1995	V Sosperi	2015	S Vandoorne

1996	J Muller	2016	P Gasly
1997	R Zonta	2017	C Leclerc
1998	JP Montoya	2018	G Russell
1999	N Heidfeld	2019	N De Vries
2000	B Junquiera	2020	M Schumacher
2001	J Wilson	2021	O Piastri
2002	S Bourdais	2022	F Drugovich
2003	B Wirdheim	2023	T Pourchaire
2004	V Luizzi	2024	G Bortoleto *

 

[cider_and_toast]

I've written an article on this ages ago, GP2 has still only provided 2 world champions.

If you look at pre Hamilton in 2006, most F1 champions barely touched the second tier. They were normally deemed to be good enough by the time they were winning in F3.

Also, if you go back to before the mid 80's when there were a boat load of 3ltr F1 engines no one wanted anymore and they needed a new home (hence F3000), There was no such thing as a second tier. F1 drivers would race in multiple series simultaneously and sometimes on both sides of the pond.

 

[F1Brits_90]

it has only produced 2 world champions. but before Gp2/F2 in its history its had only produced 1. Brabham in 1960. & it might only be 2 but i could see that change. we have 3 graduates on the grid that could win the title & make it 3 next year & i think it would be a shock if all 5 didnt win 1 during their F1 career. Russell, Leclerc & Piastri. then add on Norris & Antotelli who weren't champions