Head To Head Sebastian Vettel vs Daniel Ricciardo

[KekeTheKing]

when all you have had to worry about the entire season is beating your teammate rather than worrying about a half-dozen other drivers and cars, it makes for one of the easiest WDCs in history IMO, because it means you can concentrate all of your energies on beating only one opponent.

Depends on the teammate.

When a driver has the best car and a vastly inferior teammate, that is the clearly the easiest path to the title. When you've got to battle a similarly matched teammate in equal machinery race in race out, the title becomes increasingly difficult to achieve for both parties.

Nico and Lewis would have a good laugh if someone told them either had an "easy" path to the championship.

The battle in 2013 between the two drivers in the top car was simply embarrassing.

 

[Fenderman]

I don't see either Mercedes driver having it easy to get the WDC this season. Sure they've got the best package at the moment but neither Lewis or Nico have de facto number one status. They are working as hard as everyone else in the team to keep Mercedes on top and to beat each other. That might only change when one of two scenarios (maybe even both) come into play ...

Scenario one: Driver a) builds a significant points gap as driver b) loses ground to both driver a) and a driver from another team starts grabbing wins.
Scenario two: Red Bull, Williams and maybe McLaren find silver bullets and start taking victories from Mercedes.

As long as the threat of unforeseen DNF's hang over the team they cannot be complacent. The German GP is the halfway point of the season so there are no guarantees for either Lewis or Nico. A couple of wins by their competition could easily help to sway the balance. Add to that their need to grab every opportunity to keep on top of the other and, IMHO, whichever driver takes the title will have been in one of the toughest title fights we've seen.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Like I said toss a coin, one of them will be WDC which one you want to be is just a matter of personal preference, also as they are so evenly matched which one will be, is going to be down to reliability in other words luck, and so all the two have to do is go out do the job they are paid for to the best of their ability and keep their fingers crossed.

Edit

Shit this isn't the L v N thread is it,,, maybe a mod should to some housework.

 

[KekeTheKing]

("anyone could win in that car" etc).

Last year I was of the opinion that given the chance there was 3 drivers that could have achieved Vettel's level of success from 2009-2013 in some of Adrian Newey's finest creations. Given what we've seen so far in 2014 I think we would have to add at least one more name to that list. It's undeniable that the Red Bull was the class of the field for a vast majority of the GP starting in the 2nd half of 09 through the 13 finale. Rarely was the advantage as great as what the Merc's currently enjoy, but after 2010 Vettel rarely had to worry about the guy in the other championship car and the team was just fine with that.

Unless Seb shows some signs of the dominant driver who is the 4x reigning WDC, questions will consistently crop up about the nature of his championships and the circumstances surrounding them.

 

[siffert_fan]

Fenderman

I don't see how Scenario 2 can possibly happen with engine spec being frpzen for the season.

I would like to see Ricciardo in a Merc for the rest of this season. It wouldn't surprise me if he whipped both LH and NR.

 

[KekeTheKing]

I've said it before, but it's worth revisiting again. It's pure fantasy that "if only" the engine regs were wide open then Renault could deliver a product on par with the Mercedes lump. Their reliability is hardly ironed out with this unit, how on earth could they be expected to design a new powerplant incorporating some of Merc's design advantages and then race it successfully within time to claw back their deficit without tremendous reliability concerns.

Renault is actually lucky that they can fundamentally write this unit off and focus on the 2015 hybrid behind the scenes. Sure they'll suffer this year, but in the long run it's preferable to chasing a nigh on impossible task in vain this season.

I would like to see Ricciardo in a Merc for the rest of this season. It wouldn't surprise me if he whipped both LH and NR.

This is a strange comment considering you seem to think he's inferior to the driver he's currently handling with ease.

 

[RasputinLives]

No one has said Ricciardo is inferior to Vettel. Quite the opposite. The argument is that Danny boy taking on Seb this year doesn't prove Seb is an average driver who only won his titles because of luck and a car.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

...or that it goes some way toward indicating the opposite, depending on who you are. Although, I would say that the luck and the car were the same thing and that the rest was hard work and self-belief.

 

[RasputinLives]

Thats completely not what you said earlier but ok.

 

[teabagyokel]

Mark Webber's reputation is sinking without trace on this thread. Because if Vettel was average...

Vettel was, in my opinion, the very best driver for the RB5 through to the RB9. They suited him, he suited them.

The job Red Bull have done this year is extraordinary, but it's not the same. Vettel has had to adjust and has found it very difficult.

I'm not declaring yet. There's a lot of life there, and I think he'll come back. Alonso did something similar to Hamilton I'm 2007; the Spa chop springs to mind.

Either way, I think Ricciardo is fully established as an excellent, top-notch Grand Prix racer. I'd like to celebrate when there are more of them in F1 rather than drivers whose fathers are rich, uncles are talented or government is wasteful, with no other explanation for their presence.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

You should stop trying to read between the lines and then you'll not misinterpret anything, RasputinLives. I have not questioned his hard work or self-belief, only his relative talent.

 

[The Pits]

Incidentally, Ricciardo is only the second driver to get through the Red Bull young driver program to a drive in the main team.

Cant think of the other one, but I doubt either of them will come to much.

 

[RasputinLives]

ExtremeNinja I'm not getting drawn into but yoy should stop being selective about what you respond too. You've never mentioned hard work and self belief before but you've talked constantly about his luck in races and him having the best car. You put his charge through the field in Spain down to his luck on strategy.

I do find it funny being told not to read between the lines by someone advocating a theory based on 9 races and what he thinks he's seen in 100 races before. Isn't that like extreme reading between the lines?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I would have thought that 100 races of observation is enough to form a valid opinion without having to read between any lines. Where isw the reading between the lines and, further more, where is the extremity? If someone asks me what colour the sky is at day I don't need to say it's black at night. I never claimed to have previously said that Vettel is hard-working or self-assured, this was a response to you saying that I didn't. A response to you commenting on the things I haven't said rather than the things I have said.

 

[RasputinLives]

You've seen 100 races in which a driver has won 4 world championships and with the aid of no inside knowledge, technical data or any experience in the field you are judging have decided a driver is 'not top notch'. How is that not reading between the lines?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Because I watched the races rather than looking at the results and number of championships on Wikipedia. In fact, I watched every minute of every single one. I also watched every minute of every practice and qualifying session. No, obviously I did not possess the drivers in a Sam Becket quantum leap style and try their bodies and brains out for size but there is a shit load of information to go on from informed observation without me needing to make anything up to fill the gaps. Let's go pre-formula 1, too. Please tell me how many spec series Sebastian Vettel won.

 

[RasputinLives]

I don't actually watch the races myself. I just wait for Wikipedia to update.

I understand your hatred and mis-trust of stats but the thing you have to understand about stats is that in order for a 1 to go in the win column a driver has to actually win a race. In order for this driver to win a race he has to perform well. Now I grant you that occasionally a driver might get a stat that doesn't represent his true performance but consistantly and constantly to get 4 world championships? I think if you take a look at a list of 'stats' and 'race wins' you are pretty much looking at a list of the best F1 drivers of their time. Its not like Pedro De La Rosa sneeks on the list is it.

Its funny whilst you argued that you watch the true unfolding of the race and true performances that this debate started because you completely ignored Vettels performance at Silverstone claiming 'Riccardo bossed him'. Also in an early debate with The Pits you used relative lap times (or stats) to suggest Ricciardo was a lot better than Vettel and refused to take into account any time Vettel lost in the car through mechanical issues as an argument to suggest they are close. Your phobia of Stats seems to come and go depending on what you are trying to prove.

I guess I should bow to your superior knowledge though. Having watched it on TV you obviously have access to more detailed information than myself who only has Wikipedia. I wish I had a TV.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

You are very strange RasputinLives . I don't know why you always feel you have to tell me what I think and how I feel about things as if I don't know myself. I do not hate stats. If anything I am a statistition. I have a job as an information architect. I work with data all day long and organise it into meaningful and usable structures. The other part of my job is as a User Experience architect. This deals with the parts of information consumption and experience that ones and zeros don't.

Please stop telling me what I think, making assumptions about my motives. It is absolutely fine for you to disagree with me but stop thinking you know more about my own basis of opinion than I do. It's ridiculous having to defend myself and my opinions against your assumptions about things I have not declared but that you believe me to think. I must have told you a thousand times.

And yes, Vettel got bossed by both Ricciardo and Alonso on Sunday. The stats say that Vettel did a better job than Alonso, the viewing tells a different story.

 

[RasputinLives]

I haven't tried to tell you how you think or feel at all. I think your reading between the lines there......

I'd tell you what I did for a living but to be honest I don't think anyone gives a crap.

 

[The Pits]

Just for what its worth, the stats just say that vettel finished ahead of alonso, rather than doing a better job. Thats the benefit of stats, they are unbiased. Interpretation of stats means viewing them with our own bias, and rationalising our decisions based on the same bias.

In short it depends on whethr you believe that a chap finishing second in a two man race was second or last.