I do not believe that Jenson completed a hot lap on the Softs.
Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton
- Thread starter Brogan
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I do not believe that Jenson completed a hot lap on the Softs.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Mclaren are all at sea with pit stop strategy for both drivers but JB has still got the better deal both races
when JB pitted first last race he gained an advantage, when LH pitted first this race he gained a disadvantage, JB would have gained an advantage both times if it wasn't for the wheelnut issue that was just bad luck
LHs slow stop last race was t bad luck just incompetence
racecub
Champion Elect
Then again Im not sure what your saying. Jens had to go again in Q2 to ensure he got through, Lewis' firsdt run was good enough. Unless Iv remembered it completely wrong
Then again Im not sure what your saying. Jens had to go again in Q2 to ensure he got through, Lewis' firsdt run was good enough. Unless Iv remembered it completely wrong
As I recall, after the runs on Hard tyres, Jenson was above Lewis in times, then as other teams sent their drivers out on Soft tyres, there was some nervousness in the commentary about which drivers would need to go out again. Jenson was sent out on Soft tyres, and did an out lap, started a flying lap, the aborted and came in, not setting a time. There was a comment on the McLaren web site about Lewis not going out. If Lewis was safe on Hard tyres, the fact that Jenson had set a faster time on the hard tyres would have meant that he was also safe, therefore, a set of soft tyres were used unnecessarily (one for the spelling thread I think!!)
racecub
Champion Elect
I dont remember it like that. But as I say I might be wrong.
Erm... you're saying this was because Button came out in clear air. Yes, that's true, but that was because Button was clear of Hamilton and there was no clear air in the area that Hamilton could have came out in. 20 seconds behind him was one of the biggest logjams in F1 for some time, excepting Safety Car issues.
So what you say is, as usual, partly true but entirely disingenuous.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
I think leading driver gets first call is the same as one driver gets the better call, as McLaren appear to share all data and the same people make decisions for both drivers.
Expanding on my point above, I think the way the pit wall is arranged is that both drivers are under the control of a 'master' strategist who has all the data from both drivers, instead of two independent teams competing intra team on strategy
The problem IMO with this is that it becomes easy to hand out strategies that are not optimal. Why? Because its in human nature to have preferences bias and feelings. If Button is easy to get on with for the strategist he will tend to put JB first on average, he will also acquire a subjective opinion about the strengths of each driver, which could lead to giving JB the better choice each time in the assumption that LH is more able to handle the second choice
Before we get the usual screams of conspiracy and disdain about the topic of discussion and thread, what do you think is at fault with the pit wall strategy arrangement?
I just wanted to make sure that I was not going mad (a distinct possibility) and Jenson set a 1.36.7 on Hard tyres, marginally faster than Lewis, and this was set with 9 minutes to go. The red P next to Lewis remains on for the rest of the session, but Jenson goes out again, does not improve his time, but uses a set of tyres.
racecub
Champion Elect
Ok. My mistake then.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
yes, my opinion is subjective and the facts that I have chosen to support it are a subset of every fact or possibility, and those facts I have chosen are probably a result of my personal bias and wishes
My most recent reply to The pits above gives my opinion on what's happening at McLaren, again supported by facts or observations that I have personally chosen over others
Also known as "Cherry-picking evidence".
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Fair enough TBY, can't argue with the current success of the team
I would say though that it is down to the ability of the engineers and is despite the ability of management
I would say though that it is down to the ability of the engineers and is despite the ability of management
I believe that the strategy side for most teams is a central function. The main thing at McLaren I believe is simply that the computer console is in the middle of the garage. Both sides of the garage want to win, and initial race strategy is set in advance of the race, how this is adapted based on how the race pans out I believe is the problem at McLaren, not the fact that the computers are in a different place.
The main issue I have with any opinion I have is that I can only ever have a small portion of the information available to the teams, for example, the main thing being that I am not aware of the conversations and strategies discussed before a wheel is turned, or how this is discussed, so anything I think is based on partial information. That said, I think that McLarens biggest difficulty is being more fluid with the strategy. There seems to be a reluctance to adapt to circumstance on too many occasions.
That said, I only ever observe the outcome of these decisions, not the outcome of decisions that were not made, I also am not aware of the variables which are in play. I can say that to pit now will put a driver in traffic, however, I do not know that drivers expected rate of tyre wear, lap times relative to traffic, initial strategy, likely pit stop windows of competitors etc.
That McLaren seem to make errors is not in question, I believe that because many are really close to the team, their errors are more scrutinized than others. They also seem a little "Starchy" from time to time.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Say you believe in God and were asked to justify this opinion that he exists, would you say it was because there is absolutely no proof, or would you 'cherry pick'
That is a ludicrous comment, and quite frankly Cook, I'm out. Your hypocrisy continues to shine through.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Strategy side in many teams might be centralised but they normally have a no 1 and 2 driver, officially or otherwise, also Mclaren have two top drivers fighting for a WC. Centralising was only introduced recently after HK left the team. As we found in 2007 two drivers competing for a WC tend to not want to help the other with data and set up etc
Yes I agree that the fact that we are discussing the top British team means we are going to magnify the issues but even Gerrari seem to have a better idea of strategy
I think Mclaren place too much reliance on the Crays and don't have someone who can stick his head out the window and see dark clouds rolling in during the race. No one thinking on their feet to evolve and shape the strategy once there is deviation from the pre race ordained strategy
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
I have to say- after the race,I was going to come on here and make precisely the point that's been made- clearly button MUST be the unfavoured son, as Hamilton was given the right to put first! 
. I think the point people are trying to make is that it's not favouritism. It's not biasedness- it's what McLaren believe is the right strategy- it may turn out not to be right- but that's their call!
. I think the point people are trying to make is that it's not favouritism. It's not biasedness- it's what McLaren believe is the right strategy- it may turn out not to be right- but that's their call!Cookinflatsix
Banned
Ok it was an outlandish analogy, but my point remains, all of us 'cherry pick' some more blatantly than others perhaps but we all do, even professionals giving professional expert opinions cannot be 100% objective all the time
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
Interestingly, mr consistent (button) has now picked up a 1st and a 2nd, along with a 14th- whilst mr give it everything (Hamilton) has had 3 3rd places and leads the championship! Nothing like a role reversal!!!
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