Head To Head Jenson Button vs Fernando Alonso
- Thread starter F1Yorkshire
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The number of factors that can change season on season has a huge factor in how one driver does against his team mate and the opposition.
Lauda himself has said his heart had gone by 85. If Prost hadn't beaten him would have been a bigger shock. As for Frentzen, again Hill had given up. Frentzen's reputation was battered not from being a poor driver but for replacing Hill at Williams in 97.
There have been a number of genuine suprises in recent years, as has been said, Button moving to and out performing Hamilton and lately Riciardo out peforming Vettel.
I'm pretty sure no one expected Kimi to be that far behind Alonso but I'm reasonably certain no one expected him to beat him.
Any driver has to beat a world champion to become a world champion regardless of whether they are team mates or not.
All that's left in years to come are titles, wins and stats.
As I read recently, most people use stats as a drunk uses a lamp post. For support not illumination.
Lauda himself has said his heart had gone by 85. If Prost hadn't beaten him would have been a bigger shock. As for Frentzen, again Hill had given up. Frentzen's reputation was battered not from being a poor driver but for replacing Hill at Williams in 97.
There have been a number of genuine suprises in recent years, as has been said, Button moving to and out performing Hamilton and lately Riciardo out peforming Vettel.
I'm pretty sure no one expected Kimi to be that far behind Alonso but I'm reasonably certain no one expected him to beat him.
Any driver has to beat a world champion to become a world champion regardless of whether they are team mates or not.
All that's left in years to come are titles, wins and stats.
As I read recently, most people use stats as a drunk uses a lamp post. For support not illumination.
Mephistopheles, Josh, Boyle, nenoste95, Dario Resta (with a joker), Sardaor and Sh4dow85 all expected Raikkonen to beat him according to Team-Mate Prediction. I suppose FB expected the battering as well.
Our limited survey would suggest Ricciardo was the bigger shock, no-one gambled on him.
well I type (cause you can't see if I'm standing or not) corrected.
Il_leone
World Champion
Jen Certainly in Schumacher's case that is true although he's never raced against a team mate who had high regard in the paddock and he did not allow it
cider_and_toast
Frentzen's reputation was battered at Williams because they all expected him to be Schumacher esque and better than Hill and he was not . The longer the season went on the more baffled everyone was about him.. he got the podiums but they should be wins because he has moments in races where he is nowhere then suddenly he will do a string of fast laps and be the quickest man in the race and it makes you wonder why he was asleep or not showing the speed earlier on
His reputation took such a battering to the point he was held accountable for making Williams go backwards..it was surprise to some that he managed to land a drive with Jordan
Hill may have lost motivation but Frentzen showed what the car was capable of with 8 podiums although I feel he actually benefited from some of Hill's technical input in the team
Beating a world champion teammate seems to elevate most driver's reputation I have not seen a driver's reputation devalued from not beating a world champion teammate.
Whilst I expected Alonso to beat Raikkonen I did not think it was such an emphatic margin given the previous two years Raikkonen was a regular podium contender and did not show signs he was rusty from being away from F1
cider_and_toast
Frentzen's reputation was battered at Williams because they all expected him to be Schumacher esque and better than Hill and he was not . The longer the season went on the more baffled everyone was about him.. he got the podiums but they should be wins because he has moments in races where he is nowhere then suddenly he will do a string of fast laps and be the quickest man in the race and it makes you wonder why he was asleep or not showing the speed earlier on
His reputation took such a battering to the point he was held accountable for making Williams go backwards..it was surprise to some that he managed to land a drive with Jordan
Hill may have lost motivation but Frentzen showed what the car was capable of with 8 podiums although I feel he actually benefited from some of Hill's technical input in the team
Beating a world champion teammate seems to elevate most driver's reputation I have not seen a driver's reputation devalued from not beating a world champion teammate.
Whilst I expected Alonso to beat Raikkonen I did not think it was such an emphatic margin given the previous two years Raikkonen was a regular podium contender and did not show signs he was rusty from being away from F1
That may have been the case at Williams and for those who weren't fans of Hill but for most people I know it was a case of Frentzen having pinched Damon's rightful place. A move by the way, that if you remember, caused Adrian Newey to quit Williams as well.
Once Frentzen started winning for Jordan and for a brief while it almost looked as if he could win a world championship it was all forgiven. Poor Damon had run out of steam and we all knew it.
I've posted this elsewhere, reputations take years to build in F1 and can be lost in less than a season. It remains to be seen if Button, Alonso or both of them will enhance or lose their reputations in the forthcoming season.
Once Frentzen started winning for Jordan and for a brief while it almost looked as if he could win a world championship it was all forgiven. Poor Damon had run out of steam and we all knew it.
I've posted this elsewhere, reputations take years to build in F1 and can be lost in less than a season. It remains to be seen if Button, Alonso or both of them will enhance or lose their reputations in the forthcoming season.
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Some people think Jenson is piss poor anyway so his rep couldn't any worse in their eyes..
Well I think he's a lovely boy.
Well of course he is, I would never say otherwise..
Edit.
I'd even let him have a go on me girlfriend,,,,, if I had one that is....
Edit.
I'd even let him have a go on me girlfriend,,,,, if I had one that is....
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Dario Resta
Podium Finisher
It was bad enough without you mentioning the Joker. That was unnecessary.
Il_leone
World Champion
cider_and_toast
I do remember Newey quit Williams in protest over the sacking of Hill because he thought Head and Williams should have consulted him . I remember I've been rubbished for making those absurd claims by those who thought Newey was solely wanting more say in the Willams team. It was Newey no doubt who suggested to Ron Dennis to sign Hill to develop the car only for Damon to turn down the derisory offer made to him
We've already seen how Alonso's reputation actually plummeted after 2007. Similarly Button's went the same way as well ironically both due to Hamilton . Alonso because he could not accept a rookie beating him and Button was suddenly no longer the top Brit.
I would think Alonso's reputation would be affected more given the difference in pay scales between the two and he is suppose be amongst the top 3 drivers whereas Button is not quite in his league
I do remember Newey quit Williams in protest over the sacking of Hill because he thought Head and Williams should have consulted him . I remember I've been rubbished for making those absurd claims by those who thought Newey was solely wanting more say in the Willams team. It was Newey no doubt who suggested to Ron Dennis to sign Hill to develop the car only for Damon to turn down the derisory offer made to him
We've already seen how Alonso's reputation actually plummeted after 2007. Similarly Button's went the same way as well ironically both due to Hamilton . Alonso because he could not accept a rookie beating him and Button was suddenly no longer the top Brit.
I would think Alonso's reputation would be affected more given the difference in pay scales between the two and he is suppose be amongst the top 3 drivers whereas Button is not quite in his league
In what way did Button's rep go down due to Hamilton? In my opinion it went up I also think Alonso's rep took a battering due to spy gate and Singapore 2008 and not due to Hamilton and if Alonso's rep is so bad how come Ferrari hired him and both Button and Alonso are with McLaren this year?
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Il_leone
World Champion
Mephistopheles
Alonso's reputation did go down seriously in 2007 the way he conducted himself at Mclaren ..he managed to repair some of it when he want back to Renault. He's managed to restore it but it has not been matched with the titles - he should be 5 x WDC to be fair but his actions at Mclaren probably cost him 2 titles at least
Button's reputation unfortunately was dwarfed by the achievements of Hamilton and really not many people took notice that he was battling from the back finishing 13th although he did show his ability now and then. The British press had forgotten him and started to write him off
Alonso's reputation did go down seriously in 2007 the way he conducted himself at Mclaren ..he managed to repair some of it when he want back to Renault. He's managed to restore it but it has not been matched with the titles - he should be 5 x WDC to be fair but his actions at Mclaren probably cost him 2 titles at least
Button's reputation unfortunately was dwarfed by the achievements of Hamilton and really not many people took notice that he was battling from the back finishing 13th although he did show his ability now and then. The British press had forgotten him and started to write him off
I totally disagree with you on this matter....
Well Hamilton didn't turn my head away from my main man...
What was happening to Button during the Earth Car had nothing whatsoever to do with Hamilton; what did happen was that James Allen had a different British driver who, in JA's eyes could do no wrong, to drool over. If anything that mede me respect Button more for actually managing to do Honda adverts with a smile on his face.
Dartman
Pole Sitter
I think Button is considered less of a hairy racer than either Hamilton or Alonso as when against team mates as he would ather finish than crash, the other two will push to a collision to prove a point. I also suspect Hamilton learnt his craft from Alonso during the 07 campaign, neither would give way and wheel banging to a point of shoving each other off the track, now against the rules. Button occasionally has his moments , his win in Canada proves that if he can get away with it he will, on both Hamilton and Alonso. The opposition has to decide whether to push him on the day he decides he can get away with it. The old addage, age and cunning, outweighs youth and enthusiasm
Il_leone
World Champion
I read Autosport today
It had an article why Button was kept because he really showed what a world class driver he was as the car improved towards the end of the season and Ron was right to keep him
However in the same article it stated that Ron would have egg on his face if Button did a terrible job so the pressure is on Button to deliver
Gary Anderson adds the issue would be that Alonso and Button have different driving styles and car set ups so Mclaren ought to design a car with understeer to help Button and which Alonso can adjust his style to because Fernando can
I do feel Button needs someone like ALonso to push him really hard which should be fascinating to watch
It had an article why Button was kept because he really showed what a world class driver he was as the car improved towards the end of the season and Ron was right to keep him
However in the same article it stated that Ron would have egg on his face if Button did a terrible job so the pressure is on Button to deliver
Gary Anderson adds the issue would be that Alonso and Button have different driving styles and car set ups so Mclaren ought to design a car with understeer to help Button and which Alonso can adjust his style to because Fernando can
I do feel Button needs someone like ALonso to push him really hard which should be fascinating to watch
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