Bahrain GP Debate

[ATL11]

Reckon they'll boycott? Moral ethics and all that?

Think by the time the race is on, there will be nothing to race for, so it'll make the teams decision easier.

Still think Bahrain authorities will have a tough task to avoid their own people using the race to demonstrate their plight.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

The guy that wrote a comment under him makes a valid point also

Sly, I'm not sure which coment you meant, as more have been added since I posted the link. If you meant this one,

lotus33
While I generally agree with Mosley's sentiment, it was however under his watch that Ecclestone took control of F1 and put GP's in several unsavoury countries, Bahrain and Turkey for example. Both of which have long histories of human rights abuse. So in light of what Mosley has written and what he actually did I find the article rather unconvincing.

I think the guy is wrong, in that introducing races to countries with less than perfect human rights records is entirely consistent with Mosley's first argument; that if you stayed away from such places, depending on where you draw the 'moral' line, you would end up having hardly anywhere to race.
Nor does it detract from Mosley's second argument, that the Bahrain situation is entirely different as the regime are not only violent and repressive towards their own people, but are using the FIA and the Grand Prix for their own political ends.

 

[ramilas1]

Human Rights is, IMO, one of the least effective arguments to be used for boycotting anything.

As someone who was born in Northern Ireland in the late 1950's the only human right I had was to keep my head down and my mouth shut if I knew what was good for me ..... way before the days of 24/7 news and internet petitions!

I fully appreciate the way the world has changed since then (I personally escaped when I went to university in England and now only return to NI for family visits) but I find it difficult to reconcile the outrage from afar to events in Libya or Bahrain by citizens of all those countries that have condoned discrimination, torture or even murder when it suits them.

Ask an Iraqi how they view British or American records on Human Rights .... so Silverstone/ Austin to be boycotted?

Ask an Aborigine about the Australian record .... so should Melbourne be boycotted and will Mark Webber lead the way?

...... and maybe Mark could let us have his views on http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13637307 child immigrant deportation as well.

Several have already made mention of current China/Tibet and Turkey/Kurds situations ... so they should go as well?

By the way, Bahrain had a poor record on human rights long before this year; but so does Malaysia, India, UAE(AbuDhabi) and Brazil ...... in fact, put the words 'human rights' plus any F1 host name into Google/Wiki and you might be surprised.

And shouldn't, therefore, all these countries also be thrown out of UEFA/FIFA and the Olympic movement?

My answer is an unequivocal NO, because sport must transcend Politics, Race, Colour, Religion and all the other ancient tribal divisions - for God's sake something has to .... and pardon that pun, coming from a devout agnostic!

So, you may ask, what do I suggest? ..... well, the decision to race, or not, should be made on sporting and safety grounds, nothing else; but if the drivers or teams feel strongly about other events in the locality there's nothing to stop them wearing black arm-bands or observing a minutes silence before the race! ..... provided they do likewise, elsewhere!!

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Whether they should race there or not is another thread but I can't see how any amount of petitions are going to change the situation. There is far too much money involved for the race not to go ahead. The fact that BE is willing to sacrifice India for this race shows the level of funding he is receiving.

As for a team boycott, I don't think this will happen no matter how late it is in the championship. McLaren have strong financial ties with the Bahraini royal family so can they really afford to annoy them? If McLaren are going to race then surely the other top teams have to race too just so McLaren don't walk away with the easy constructor points.

Individual drivers may choose to not race there on ethical reasons. Webber is one of the more outspoken about the situation and if he isn't in a championship fight I could see him sitting this one out.

Unfortunately we live in a world where it's money 1st morals 2nd.

 

[Bill Boddy]

....

Unfortunately we live in a world where it's money 1st morals 2nd.

And we will continue to do so until the majority object strongly enough.

 

[Theo_55]

@ramilas1

Sorry I posted my response in the wrong place above.

A well written response, without the hysterics!

 

[GurraJG]

The thing with Bahrain is that the violent oppression is still going on. You can make the case that Australia or the UK have, and are, breaking human rights, but they're not out on the streets of their towns and cities and shooting, arresting and torturing people because they want a democratic government. The fact that that is happening makes all the difference when it comes to Bahrain.

Now, you can always make the case that places such as China or Turkey shouldn't be included, and I have sympathy with those arguments, becausen there are sious human rights issues that goes on in those countries. However, to dismiss the human rights issue completely just because there is no country in the world that has a perfect human rights record is just silly. There are human rights issues all over the world, but you have to draw the line somewhere. The type of oppression that is seen in Bahrain is much worse than, say, Native American policies in the US and Canada, or immigration policies in Australia. Don't get me wrong, those are serious issues, but they are of a different dynamic compared to brutal, violent oppression of people wanting democracy..

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Here's an interesting article from Pitpass.com
http://www.pitpass.com/43819-Why-is-Bahrain-back-on-the-calendar-follow-the-money
in which it is suggested that the two sides may be in effect playing 'Chicken'; in other words, whoever is the last to cancel will end up paying the bill to the other. If the FIA/FOM had called the race off, they would owe the Bahraini race organisers. However, if the FIA say that it's on but it ends up being cancelled anyway due to further unrest, government travel advice, insurance problems etc. then the ball is back in the organisers' court. So the FIA may well have reinstated the event in the knowledge that there is a good chance that it will still end up being cancelled, but by the other side.

I suppose the FIA might think they would be winners in either eventuality. In truth, no-one is coming out of this looking good at all. And all the while, the Indian race organisers are suffering as they still don't know what date their race will be held on.

 

[gethinceri]

It's a Black Comedy, and not a very good one, then.

 

[Andyoak]

Has hell just frozen over? I agree with good old Max!
He puts things so much better than I can as to why Bahrain is so different from China, South Africa etc. in this Telegraph article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...be-reversed-or-F1-will-live-to-regret-it.html

Incidentally, the Avaaz petition currently stands at over 402,000 signatures and rising.

I'm afraid Hell hasn't frozen over but even Max has the ability to make sense sometimes.
Between Max, Ramilas and my own thoughts it seems rdiiculous to go with this race but as you said; probably just a case of a tasteless game of chicken.

This whole mess has a very long way to go yet.

 

[siffert_fan]

Do you think is it possible that the tyres will develop a "safety problem", resulting in a 2005 Indy-like exhibition? It might even recur early next season as well, and at the same circuit!! Such a happenstance could get F1 off the hook and still let them pocket the money.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Do you think is it possible that the tyres will develop a "safety problem", resulting in a 2005 Indy-like exhibition? It might even recur early next season as well, and at the same circuit!! Such a happenstance could get F1 off the hook and still let them pocket the money.

I heard the wrong kind of sand in the air intake could cause claustrophobic engine failure.

 

[Mezzer]

Seeing the continued unrest from the 'Arab Spring' (now "Summer'?) I've been thinking about what the effect of a major terrorist incident at a GP such as the Bahrain GP could have on F1, especially if it directly affected the F1 teams in some way. It's made me wonder how fragile F1 really is, could it easily break up if something significant happened and all fingers turned in Bernie's direction due to his penchant for new GPs with little history behind them but plenty of money? Could F1 as we know it survive a major incident of this sort?

 

[tooncheese]

I know you are saying "what if", but remember the opposition are just normal people who want a democracy. It seems unlikely they would commit a crime like that, that would end all hope of outside help in the country. But if it did, F1 will bounce back. After Senna's death F1 was in crisis and loads of rules where brought in (many unnecessary in my opinion). Remember the awful chicane at eau rouge and the mess that they made of Imola (rightly so but overkill). F1 survived, and would an incident like this make you turn away in disgust and not look back? I would soon return to F1.

 

[Speshal]

I've merged this with the Bahrain thread for simplicity.

 

[Mezzer]

remember the opposition are just normal people who want a democracy

I'm totally with you, but its the kind of event that I'm sure is tempting to one of the multiple terrorist organizations in the region as a sign of western influence. In no way am I trying to be a scare-monger or anything like that, I'm just wondering if Bernie's really thought through all the ramifications. Personally I don't have a problem with Bahrain being on the calendar, it just seems to me that there's too much still going on there and that giving it a miss this year would seem to be the politic and sensibly-cautious thing to do.

 

[Slyboogy]

I am going to be somewhat in the minority here I suspect. .My only concern with this GP going forward is the one that Ross Brawn raised about the length of the season and the demand made on staff in the teams. Yes there is a security issue here, but while it is more obvious it is no more real than for any other GP. Will Bahrain actually be more risky than India? Or San Paolo? Is this the only GP with the prospect of becoming the focus for a large scale protest? Like all major international events this becomes a fact of life that has to be managed and provided for.

On the moral aspect I despair of the way in which we are asked to see the events in the Middle East as somehow all one homogenous activity. Equating what is happening in Bahrain to events in Syria or Libya, as our press are wont to do, is both wrong and offensive. What is happening in each country is unique and different, and in Bahrain in particular is quite complex. Until this year no-one would have characterised Bahrain as brutal or oppressive. It is a monarchy, but a broadly popular one, mainly because the country has been well run, with a strong economy that has delivered a high standard of living for its citizens and, by middle estern standards, a very good record on human rights. Some years ago, as a further liberalisation, an elected parliament was created, with powers devolved to it from the crown.

There are three interconnected elements to the current unrest. Bahrain's economic success has attracted (and depended upon) large numbers of foreign workers, who now seek a larger say in the country (imagine a large influx of EU citizens into the UK and the likely reaction if they demanded the right to vote in elections!) . There is also a sectarian issue as Bahrainis are predominantly Sunni but most of the arab immigrants are Shia. This is made more difficult as a subset of these latter want more than an extra say, they want to replace the existing regime with a fundamental islamic state - something that many other Bahrainis have seen next door and want no part of. Finally, local politics plays a part. Iran claims sovereignty over Bahrain, there are suspicians that Iran either instigated the current unrest, or is at least using them to its own advantage, and that any new Islamic government in Bahrain may quickly agree to its annexation by Iran, again something very unpopular with most Bahrainis.

There has been violence, but on a far lesser scale than in the countries I mentioned previously. Indeed the level and cause of the violence is still unclear but it seems that most of the fatalities were members of the security forces rather than protesters (think about the likely reaction if a protest in the UK turned violent and started killing the coppers policing the event) and more recently the violence has involved the use of tear gas, water cannons and rubber bullets (all of which have been deployed and used in many countries - inckuding France and UK - in recent years) but not live firing on civilians.

I find this a hard judgement anyway - Abu Dhabi, Malaya, China, Singapore, Turkey, Russia, you could make stronger cases against all of these, and I am sure others would add the UK and the USA to the list.

Post made by Oldboy on Muzz606, the reason why I put it on here as it is a well made post.

 

[Mezzer]

Post made by Oldboy on Muzz606, the reason why I put it on here as it is a well made post.

Always liked OldBoy, he always thought his posts through. That said, not sure I fully agree with him, especially when a comparatively rogue state such as Iran is a player.

 

[GurraJG]

Post made by Oldboy on Muzz606, the reason why I put it on here as it is a well made post.

There are a few points in that post that I'd like to contest:

1.) He says that Bahrain has a good human rights record; not so. For several years, even before the events of this year, Bahrain has been criticised for regular uses of torture in the judicial process.

2.) Bahrain does indeed have a democractically elected parliament, but only one of the two houses of parliament are elected; the other house is appointed by the King and has the power to veto any piece of legislation. Therefore, it's not democracy by the standards that we in the West hold.

3.) Bahrain is NOT a predominantly Sunni; in fact, 70% of the Muslim population is Shia. However, the ruling classes are Sunni, and are often treated a lot better when it comes to education/housing/etc. than the majority Shia population.

4.) Regarding immigration, the current practice in Bahrain is to naturalise large numbers of Sunni immigrants from Pakistan, Yemen and other Sunni countries, in order to shift the demographic nature of Bahrain in favour of the Sunni's.

5.) As for the claims of annexation by Iran, it is worth noting that Iran is a majority Shia country, and any new Sunni-lead government would hardly agree to annexation by Iran. Never mind, I got myself confused there

6.) Finally, on the nature of violence, there are plenty of news reports out there that unequivocally state that peaceful protestors, doctors and nurses, and innocent bystanders have been attacked, beated, tortured and killed. The Interior Minister himself admitted that of the 24 people officially listed as killed by the 29th of March, only four were security officers; the rest civilians. Then there are the large number of civilians who have been wounded, injured or put into detention. This is by no means actions to simply disperse protesters.

 

[Brogan]

Silly games are being played, it would seem.

In a bizarre twist Bernie Ecclestone now appears to be urging the teams to come out against Bahrain.

Ecclestone took part in Friday’s WMSC meeting in Barcelona, along with team principals Stefano Domenicali and Vijay Mallya, and was part of what the FIA says was a unanimous vote.

The Daily Telegraph reports that Bernie has had a change of heart, and is now talking about putting the race at the end of the season on the basis that it will be easier to cancel it – while thus presumably restoring India to October 30.

Bernie apparently wants the teams to demand a new vote, presumably on the basis that he will no longer vote yes and it won’t be unanimous.

http://adamcooperf1.com/2011/06/07/confusion-reigns-as-ecclestone-backtracks-on-bahrain/

Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone is calling for a dramatic U-turn over the calendar reshuffle after the backlash that has been caused by the reinstatement of the Bahrain Grand Prix.

Amid a wave of criticism about the decision to reinstate Bahrain, plus concerns voiced by teams and drivers about safety in the Gulf state if the event goes ahead, Ecclestone has now called for a rethink.

With the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) expected to make clear its stance towards the Bahrain situation later today, Ecclestone is now suggesting that India be reinstated to its original October 30 date.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92051