2014 / 2015 Silly Season. Drivers Market.

[Il_leone]

siffert_fan Todt managed to get the personnel in the team ie Brawn, Byrne , Stepney to run the team with Schumacher and he dealt with the politics by keeping Luca on the side which did not please him because the key positions were all non Italians

When Todt left Luca basically ran the team how he saw fit by giving the key roles to Italians except the drivers

and I've already said the windtunnel issues which Alonso's Ferrari team suffered from was the symptoms of the unlimited testing policy that Ferrari ran throughout 90's and 00's and was not taken as seriously until unlimited testing was banned

You must be the only person on this forum who denies how much of an advantage Schumacher's Ferrari had to be at the front and remain there

 

[siffert_fan]

As I said, EVERY team was permitted unlimited testing, not just Ferrari. Also, Brawn, Byrne etc chose to follow MS to Ferrari, not vice versa. Why? Because they knew they had the best driver of the time so all they had to do was produce a car that could compete but did not have to be dominant.

IMO, ignoring those facts plus the never-ending claim that Newey cars were always unbeatable (frequently used to diminish Vettell's accomplishments, but which also ignores that MS always had to beat Newey cars) indicates that different standards are applied to different driver's accomplishments. I won't speculate as to why.

 

[soccerman17]

For everyone bashing Kimi yes he started the season very very poorly but he has done quite nicely over the final stretch of the season it seems.

 

[Kewee]

During most of the Schumacher era there were no budget restrictions, in fact it was rumoured there was Government money involved in the running of Ferrari. It is widely believed their spending ran over 700 million compared to McLaren at 500 million. Ferrari also had Bridgestone in their pocket. Having the sports major tyre supplier designing tyres around the handling characteristics of the Ferrari was the icing on the cake, providing Schumacher with a car no one could touch. Of course he still had to be top draw to get the best out of it.

 

[Incubus]

I think we're getting seriously out of topic here but for the record, government aid is absolutely nothing new in F1, in some form or other, and the big teams from ANY country have at some point benefited from it.

It just takes different forms according each country's economic structure.

Direct assistance in Italy (Alfa-Romeo, Ferrari...), government subsidies (Ligier), or very favourable taxation system towards the type of business F1 is (british teams)...

The latter of course, represents a huge economical advantage towards any F1 staff seeking a base to establish themselves in. Which is why the UK is the centre of F1 engineering excellence and will forever remain so unless there is some sort of radical change of economic structure.

 

[Mephistopheles]

During most of the Schumacher era there were no budget restrictions,

There ain't now Red Bull put paid to that, that's two small teams have gone tits up...

 

[Kewee]

Incubus ..... I wasn't suggesting government aid or assistance through tax relief or by any other means was something new, I was simply pointing out that the level of spending at Ferrari during that period, widely considered to be conservatively 200 million more than the second biggest spender in the sport, combined with the tyre advantage achieved through the close development relationship Schumacher formed with Bridgestone, gave the team and its drivers a considerable advantage. This was widely reported at the time in all the leading motorsport magazines. As I said Schumacher, more than his teammates, was able to take the maximum out of the situation he was in through sheer talent.

 

[The Artist.....]

During most of the Schumacher era there were no budget restrictions, in fact it was rumoured there was Government money involved in the running of Ferrari. It is widely believed their spending ran over 700 million compared to McLaren at 500 million. Ferrari also had Bridgestone in their pocket. Having the sports major tyre supplier designing tyres around the handling characteristics of the Ferrari was the icing on the cake, providing Schumacher with a car no one could touch. Of course he still had to be top draw to get the best out of it.

700million what?

There is no way in hell that Ferrari were spending 700million pounds (or euros for that matter)... In 2008, formula money analysed team budgets and published these http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/22/toyota-has-biggest-f1-budget-4456m/

 

[Il_leone]

Kewee siffert_fan

One other factor was Bridgestone made tyres tailor made for Ferrari not for the entire field - any other Bridgestone user was treated as 2nd rate customer

Brawn and Byrne followed MS to Ferrari which was a good move at the time because the best engineers have always tended to be British ( except Byrne) and Newey was not available because he was contracted to Williams

the way Todt ran the ship it was good for Ferrari because he used all the resources and the results were delivered on the track with the best personnel available but it was not good for Luca or some of his political allies because they wanted more Italians in the F1 in key positions and Todt was beginning to have more political influence than they wanted. He was not going to report and listen what Luca asks for .... even signing Alonso as a youngster to their academy before Massa was signed.

Todt said he was never going to sign Alonso as long as he was still in charge of the team because Fernando turned his offer down in 2000 - whether that was because Flavio made him a better offer or he knew he have to wait for Schumacher to hang up was is not clear

If Ferrari had put more faith into Ross Brawn they would not be in such mess but they were not interested in promoting him to Team Principal and who did they go for Domenicali - someone from within the Ferrari- FIAT family

 

[Kewee]

The Artist..... The figure quoted was $US. This was well before 2008. If you read both my postings you'll realise I was referring to the Schumacher era. He had retired by 2008. Yes it was a hell of a lot of money but once again, read my first posting where I pointed out the Italian Government was making significant contributions to the Ferrari budget as there were no budget restrictions during this period. In reality there were no checks and balances and the amount Ferrari were spending was never more than an estimate. The governments contribution was never confirmed let alone the amount, but it was never denied. The 700 million was always considered conservative.

Il_leone..... If you read my posting again I said the Bridgestones were designed to suit the Ferrari's. Schumacher worked very closely with Bridgestone doing development work using the Ferrari as their benchmark.

It was the combination of their massive budget and working exclusively with Bridgestone that contributed to their significant advantage though that doesn't mean we should ignore Schumachers talent and input that also played a major role in their success.

 

[Il_leone]

Kewee Sorry I missed that but it does make his life a lot easier if he does not have continually fight and rally his team to the front

siffert_fan
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Alonso was able to that with Renault against Schumacher in 2006 - a team with less resources than Ferrari


I do think if Alonso was in Mclaren 2005 he probably would have still won the title because he is a smarter racer than Raikkonen and probably would have pointed out things to Mclaren and Mercedes to do better operationally to cut out the reliability problems

 

[The Artist.....]

Kewee
Again, just not true.
http://www.f1scarlet.com/budgets&expenses_f1.html

 

[Il_leone]

I am wondering about Mclaren's delaying driver decision

Double points 50-36-30-24-20-16-12-8-4-2

So for Mclaren to get 4th in the constructors - they need to win the race and Ferrari don't score any points the minimum or at least 3rd and 5th

If Mclaren get 1st and 2nd then Ferrari must not be placed higher than 5th and 6th
If Mclaren get 2nd and 3rd then Ferrari must not be placed higher than 8th and 9th
If Mclaren get 3rd and 4th then the lead Ferrari car must be no higher than 9th
if Mclaren get 4th and lower then its no good if Ferrari's finished behind them
If Mclaren get 2nd then their other car must not be lower than 6th if Ferrari no score or 1 car gets 10th place


I don't want to sound cynical but are Mclaren thinking about 4th in the constructors with the additional prize money that comes with it to pay for Jenson Button's wages as each constructors position is $10m


It will be interesting to see the following when Alonso races with both Magnussen and Button - just how hard will they race or will Alonso move over for either of them

Ditto when Vettel races Raikkonen - Would Seb move over to allow Kimi more points to keep their constructors position and prize money and would he do the same with Alonso in order t help Ferrari

That would surely stir up some interesting conspiracies but I just don't how Mclaren will be the 2nd fastest car behind the Mercs this weekend and Ferrari will falter to the point unless somehow ALonso and Kimi take each other out

 

[F1Yorkshire]

I'm not sure how relevant it is but McLaren's long term test driver has just retired. Could Magunssen slip into that role for a season or two if Button is retained.

 

[Il_leone]

note $10m additional prize money for 4th place rather than 5th place as they can't afford Button's wages apparently and Magnussen is a cheaper option

Jenson commands apparently $13m and K Mag is on $1m

 

[Il_leone]

someone forgot to mention that Ferrari got some royalty payment agreed with Bernie of the region of $50m because of their history in F1

 

[Bill Boddy]

According to the 2007 Black Book the 2006 budgets for the top teams in millions were:

$402.30 McLaren Mercedes
$383.35 Toyota
$368.50 BMW Sauber
$371.30 Honda
$319.90 Ferrari
$292.30 Renault F1

 

[Il_leone]

it would have been interesting to note what these teams were getting free and if these budgets include driver's salaries

 

[Bill Boddy]

They will include the amount that the teams pay the drivers but not what the sponsors may add on top.

 

[Kewee]

The Artist..... Come on Artist, don't you get it, I'll start again. The period I'm referring to is Schumachers Ferrari years dating from 1996 to 2006. Your quoting a different period, even during Schumachers late career at Ferrari budgets were becoming more controlled. The money Ferrari were spending from 1998 to the early 2000's was obscene. As I said much was written about it in F1 Magazine, Autosport, even in Motorsport which is probably the finest yet most conservative of all the motorsport publications.
I don't know why your trying to discredit what I'm saying. All the information and figures I've quoted have been widely reported by the most reliable publications and accepted as fact by the sports insiders. Spending was already starting to tighten, to a degree voluntarily, by 2007 so the figures your quoting don't relate to Ferrari's position of strength during Schumachers Ferrari years. I'm unsure why your quoting figures from 2007, Schumacher retired in 2006.