Grand Prix 2011 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

It's turning out to be a strange old season

Mixed conditions and poor pit stops paved the way to an enthralling race, while it had one of the lowest overtaking figures of the year, it certainly showed that overtaking isn't the be all and end all of grand prix racing, however the two Mclaren drivers showed that overtaking can be exciting.

Of the runners and riders, Ferrari have made the biggest gain and maybe, just maybe, Red Bull have lost their monopoly over the top step of the podium and we might finally have a championship, however I'm sure I have said this after China and Canada.......

The curious case of Mclaren continued apace this weekend as they had no pace, found pace and then lost it again. In the changeable conditions at the start of the race, Hamilton and Button charged through the field until the dry conditions when the natural order reasertied themselves, however, it is hard to see how they really showed in fully dry conditions as Button lost a wheel nut early on and Hamilton had to fuel save for the latter part of the race.

Going into the German Grand Prix, Red Bull will understandably be favourites as Sebastian Vettel looks to extend his lead at the top of the championship as he continues in his quest for back to back champions (and the youngest to do so before I'm mistaken) but he'll have to fight off a resurgant Mark Webber who is finally challenging his team mate again after a slow start to the season after he struggled to acclimatise to the Pirelli tyres, he was also stung by the team orders at the end of the last Grand Prix, so you can't bet against him for at least a podium position next weekend.

Renault seem to have disappeared after a strong start to the season, Vitaly Petrov seems to have fallen back into 2010 mode after a strong start to the season. Nick Heidfeld has fared better recently and still features in the lower ends of the points, however a podium seems a long way away, a theory solidified as their side exhausts have had to be abandonded due to the propsed rules, however with the debate going on at the moment, this may not be the case after all.

Mercedes seem to have found pace recently, Rosberg is constintely in the midle of the points while Schumacher seems more like himself again, in more ways than one.......... But at his home grand prix, he will be keen to show that he still has it, along with a large number of German drivers, the most represented country on the grid, so many people will be keen to show that they are the best German on the grid.

Team lotus made it into Q2 again which is a major achievment for them and shows that they are getting closer to the midfield and their major goal of getting points before the end of the year so they can beat Virgin and Hispania.

This year we return to the Nurburgring as part of the deal is that the circuit alternates with Hockenheim, last time we were there was in 2009 where Mark Webber won his first grand prix in the Red Bull. In recent memory Nurburgring will be best remembered for the crazy race in 2007 where a heavy rain shower caused havoc at the start of the race and famously allowed Markus Winkelhock to lead the race in his Spyker, joining the elite of people who led a race in their first (and only race)

For Galahad's excellent circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/nurburgring/

 

[Sarinaide]

No it is the German GP thread and the relevance is once the rules reverted back to pre-Silverstone spec, the Ferrari once again looked off the RB and McLaren pace bar FP1.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

No it is the German GP thread and the relevance is once the rules reverted back to pre-Silverstone spec, the Ferrari once again looked off the RB and McLaren pace bar FP1.

What relevance does the British GP have to the German GP? You have given a reason why it is not relevant. What makes you think the Ferrari was off the pace of the McLaren? Both Ferrari's qualified ahead of a McLaren and Alonso was within 4 seconds of Hamilton for the entire race.

 

[Tram]

Lewis Hamilton, the greatest driver in the history of motorsport!

Hammy you sure know how to make someone's day

 

[MCLS]

No it is the German GP thread and the relevance is once the rules reverted back to pre-Silverstone spec, the Ferrari once again looked off the RB and McLaren pace bar FP1.

So how was Alonso faster than Webber and Vettel, and Massa outpaced Vettel all through the race?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

So how was Alonso faster than Webber and Vettel, and Massa outpaced Vettel all through the race?

To be fair, Vettel was quicker than Massa, he just wasn't able to overtake him.

Not disagreeing with you on your main point that the Ferrari was every bit as quick as Red Bull and McLaren in the race though. Certainly in the hands of Alonso. It has to be said that both Ferrari's out qualified one of the McLarens too.

 

[MCLS]

I now reckon that 2011 has got more overtakes than any other season since 1982 now, because I think that there were more than 50 overtakes today.

 

[Sarinaide]

So how was Alonso faster than Webber and Vettel, and Massa outpaced Vettel all through the race?

Maybe it was that other myth that people have conjured up....."RED BULL have superior qualification pace but not Race pace" and this goes hand in hand with more people early one stating "McLaren have the best Race pace overall".

I have never said Ferrari are slow in respect of falling in lue with the Renaults and Mercedes cars, but really only until recent have Ferrari generally qualified better and with only one front row qualification this season suggests that the car is far from this epic drive that people make it out to be. Is it better than pre-valencia....yes, is it quicker.....yes,....is it more stable with better downforce....probably.....Is it the best car.........NO, the proof look at the CWC table and you get your answer.

And so what that both Ferrari's beat a solitary McLaren,....doesn't Alonso normally out qualify Button anyways (shocker) and until recently Massa has been out qualified by Button, but I think we have by and larged established that Button is Massa with a WDC.

EDIT:

Having watched the extended highlights again, Rosberg came out of the pits, Kamui had up to temp tyres on, Rosberg gingerly got the car around 1 and Kamui with better grip just drove past Rosberg like he wasn't there going into 2,....sound familiar, yes 10 laps previously the same thing happened to Alonso, hardly the most electrifying move in sports entertainment,.....more rudementary than anything else.

Onto another issue of discussion, Hamilton and Webber go toe - to - toe into 2 and 3, Webber is alongside Hamilton on the outside, Hamilton knows and sees this, he then defends by driving Webber off the race track, surely driving someone off the road that is alongside is not withing the clear black and white,....maybe the fine print version. In that situation if he holds inside he has a better drive out of 3 and into 4 anyways, he defended that situation earlier in the race going into the final straight when Webber attempted to pass, had a bad exit and Lewis was able to use the angle to get on the gas earlier and take the position straight back.

 

[Sarinaide]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula_one/14270107.stm

That seems to suggest what most Ferrari fans believe anyways, that the gap is not so much as it was and that the car is a little easier to drive.

*cue the Ferrari have been super fast like, all season*

 

[Brogan]

Onto another issue of discussion, Hamilton and Webber go toe - to - toe into 2 and 3, Webber is alongside Hamilton on the outside, Hamilton knows and sees this, he then defends by driving Webber off the race track, surely driving someone off the road that is alongside is not withing the clear black and white

Lewis was perfectly entitled to hold his line and did nothing wrong.

It is the job of the overtaking driver to get past, not the driver being overtaken to just pull out of the way.

 

[cider_and_toast]

I'd just like to applaud the FIA for placing the DRS Zone where it did for the race. By having it on the opposite side of the track to the main overtaking area it ensured that DRS had almost no effect on the outcome of the race.

It was interesting to see just how little effect having the DRS open at that point of the track had on the chasing cars.

The KERS assisted last of the late breakers moves in to the first corner coming off the drag race down the main straight provided some of the most entertaining overtakes of the season.

 

[sushifiesta]

Yes I was thinking the same thing. The problem with DRS for me is the way that it's being used on race day. If DRS is to stay I think they need to change the rules for the race to be like KERS so the drivers can use it to attack and defend - i.e. they can use it whenever they like for some amount of time per lap, or something along those lines.

 

[RickD]

Lewis was perfectly entitled to hold his line and did nothing wrong.

It is the job of the overtaking driver to get past, not the driver being overtaken to just pull out of the way.

I like this and agree, but if you cast your mind back to Canada, people were saying the incident between Lewis and Jenson was Jensons fault. Now, as you know, I never agreed with this and now a similar incident has taken place (one driver sticking to their line, the other getting pushed out), albeit in better conditions, you are now saying this was a racing incident and Lewis is perfectly entitled to push Mark out!?!

This is slightly ingenious.

As far as the race goes, I can be impartial as my driver went out with mechanical failure and wasn't setting the world alight before this happened (although he was starting to gain places, so might have been intresting later on). Lewis drove a cracking race and fully deserved that win. Alonso showed that Ferrari have found a lot of pace from their updates, but that they still have an issue with new tyres and getting them into the working window.

Red Bull seem to have lost their (in)famous qualifying pace. This is a direct result of the changes to the EBD along with those afformentioned updates for Ferrari and Mclaren.

Webber proved he was a good number 2 again this weekend and my only surprised was that they didn't make him slow down to let Vettel through (suppose they would have if there were more laps left). Vettel has proved, at least to me, that he really can not overtake, very fast when in clear air, but just doesn't seem to have the skill required to pass another car on track without a massive advantage. I know that people will say this race proves nothing in regards to Sebs skills or lack thereof in this department, but they are wrong and this, the second time he has been faced this year with a car infront of him on merit, he failed miserably. I suppose we can only hope that come the end of the season, he will need to pass another car on track to take the WDC. That is the only way he will be able to put those demons to bed I feel.

 

[Brogan]

Not moving off your line and looking in your mirror and squeezing someone into a wall are two entirely different things.

Jenson clearly knew Lewis was there after he was slow exiting the final chicane - his head tilts twice as he is watching Lewis hard in his mirrors.

I doubt we're ever going to agree on that specific incident so there is little point in going over old ground.

 

[Incubus]

I'd just like to applaud the FIA for placing the DRS Zone where it did for the race. By having it on the opposite side of the track to the main overtaking area it ensured that DRS had almost no effect on the outcome of the race.

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Indeed. Webber, Hamilton Alonso and Vettel all overtook each other quite a few times, and all of it was carried out outside of the DRS zones.
So the debate has to be revived: Is DRS needed at all? Personally I think it does more harm than good.

 

[RickD]

Not moving off your line and looking in your mirror and squeezing someone into a wall are two entirely different things.

I doubt we're ever going to agree on that specific incident so there is little point in going over old ground.

As I said, disingenious, squeezing is squeezing..

 

[RevMaxPower]

As I said, disingenious, squeezing is squeezing..

However, Rick, there is a huge difference beteen a WALL and a patch of Grass or Astroturf!

 

[sushifiesta]

Squeezing someone out wide on corner exit during an overtake is something that happens multiple times at pretty much every race. Coming across someone when they are alongside at corner entry (e.g. Buemi on Heidfeld) or elsewhere is a different matter and often causes crashes and stewards investigations. There is quite a big difference between cutting across someone and squeezing them.

 

[Sarinaide]

It was just a point of notice, not saying anything should happen.

I just don't get the response that a wall and turf make a situation better or worse, driving someone off the road when side by side is not really the way to do things, needless say Lewis was always in the better position, it would have taken an extrodinary move to pull it off.

 

[Incubus]

I just don't get the response that a wall and turf make a situation better or worse,

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You should try smashing your car against it mate, the difference would quickly becaome fairly obvious/

 

[Sarinaide]

So in a similar circumstance only the advent of a wall is the determining factor? That is arbitrary in application and leads to more ifs and buts, universal application/general application is the way to go and that is for rules in general.