Grand Prix 2011 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

It's turning out to be a strange old season

Mixed conditions and poor pit stops paved the way to an enthralling race, while it had one of the lowest overtaking figures of the year, it certainly showed that overtaking isn't the be all and end all of grand prix racing, however the two Mclaren drivers showed that overtaking can be exciting.

Of the runners and riders, Ferrari have made the biggest gain and maybe, just maybe, Red Bull have lost their monopoly over the top step of the podium and we might finally have a championship, however I'm sure I have said this after China and Canada.......

The curious case of Mclaren continued apace this weekend as they had no pace, found pace and then lost it again. In the changeable conditions at the start of the race, Hamilton and Button charged through the field until the dry conditions when the natural order reasertied themselves, however, it is hard to see how they really showed in fully dry conditions as Button lost a wheel nut early on and Hamilton had to fuel save for the latter part of the race.

Going into the German Grand Prix, Red Bull will understandably be favourites as Sebastian Vettel looks to extend his lead at the top of the championship as he continues in his quest for back to back champions (and the youngest to do so before I'm mistaken) but he'll have to fight off a resurgant Mark Webber who is finally challenging his team mate again after a slow start to the season after he struggled to acclimatise to the Pirelli tyres, he was also stung by the team orders at the end of the last Grand Prix, so you can't bet against him for at least a podium position next weekend.

Renault seem to have disappeared after a strong start to the season, Vitaly Petrov seems to have fallen back into 2010 mode after a strong start to the season. Nick Heidfeld has fared better recently and still features in the lower ends of the points, however a podium seems a long way away, a theory solidified as their side exhausts have had to be abandonded due to the propsed rules, however with the debate going on at the moment, this may not be the case after all.

Mercedes seem to have found pace recently, Rosberg is constintely in the midle of the points while Schumacher seems more like himself again, in more ways than one.......... But at his home grand prix, he will be keen to show that he still has it, along with a large number of German drivers, the most represented country on the grid, so many people will be keen to show that they are the best German on the grid.

Team lotus made it into Q2 again which is a major achievment for them and shows that they are getting closer to the midfield and their major goal of getting points before the end of the year so they can beat Virgin and Hispania.

This year we return to the Nurburgring as part of the deal is that the circuit alternates with Hockenheim, last time we were there was in 2009 where Mark Webber won his first grand prix in the Red Bull. In recent memory Nurburgring will be best remembered for the crazy race in 2007 where a heavy rain shower caused havoc at the start of the race and famously allowed Markus Winkelhock to lead the race in his Spyker, joining the elite of people who led a race in their first (and only race)

For Galahad's excellent circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/nurburgring/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Who is generalising........I don't hold him in contempt only the remarks that paint him with a brush of crimson and gold making him out to be the best and most faultless driver around. Then it comes down to bashing another driver for not attempting something stupid that has cost the aforementioned driver dearly.

Which remarks? I have no idea what you are referring to. Bashing which driver? I have no idea what you are referring to.

There is only one person bashing a driver on this entire thread and it's you. Calm down and read back through the posts before you reply.

 

[Fenderman]

Buemi gets a 5 place grid drop at Hungary for causing a collision with Heidfeld.

Is he challenging for the title "Unluckiest Driver of the Year"?

 

[Sarinaide]

But this is a man who wants to do the fastest lap when leading a GP by thirty seconds.

Nobody said he was without his faults, and by virtue of not being behind very often nobody knows how well he could handle it. Given this is by far the worst which is hardly as bad as made out to be. One race does not make him a "can't drive from behind driver". People just need to chill.

Well maybe fastest laps are a goal for him, who knows.

 

[Josh]

In those instances the driver was not 3 race wins clear in front, if Seb can't take risks overtaking when far in front he never will. So although a great driver he is not as great a racer as others who take risks and end up with the spoils overall (adjusted for car advantage)

He can still lose the championship, even though he is far in front... Not such a good argument tbh.

 

[Brogan]

People just need to chill.

Well quite.

 

[Slyboogy]

What do you think? I've argued all along that these mistakes (not kers, DRS or brakes) were more significant in his inability to overtake. I thought this was obvious.

By the way I thought Redbull's steep upper place design mean they have one of the best DRSs, albeit more in quali trim. Any performance gap between the top runners in DRS use is marginal and we saw Vettel pass Hamilton with DRS in China.

A mistake by going offline when he wasn't in a situation to overtake makes him not have the ability overtake? Granted he locked up and missed the chicane when fighting with Massa, but he wasn't in a position anyway to overtake Massa there, he nearly ran into the back of Massa as he locked up, avoided a collision and went off.

Top speed wise, no they don't have the best DRS. The only advantage they have with the DRS is in qualifying where they have a lot of downforce out of a fast sweeping corner letting their drivers deploy the DRS earlier, you can't do that during the race as there is an activation line, so the advantage is gone.

DRS pass in China, Hamilton's tyres where shot, so he got a better drive the corner before.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

One race does not make him a "can't drive from behind driver". People just need to chill.

One race? He has been in F1 for 4 years and is the current WDC. Are you under the impression that he was making his debut today? Please think about what you are saying before you post.

 

[Slyboogy]

Buemi gets a 5 place grid drop at Hungary for causing a collision with Heidfeld.

Why wasn't he given a drive through during the race? There was ample time to investigate and award a penalty.

Oh god...

Very good point Brogan, but we have seen that a lot recently, "investigated after the race" when they have "ample time"

 

[Sarinaide]

Which remarks? I have no idea what you are referring to. Bashing which driver? I have no idea what you are referring to?

There is only one person bashing a driver on this entire thread and it's you. Calm down and read back through the posts before you reply.

You critisised Vettel for not attempting to make a pass, saying if it had been Hamilton he would have attempted such. You critisised his skills based on a ipse dixit and irrelevent circumstance. The whole undertow here is that you have low regard for his race craft all based on the fact he doesn't do the stupid move or being a driver he is not. He learnt well from Turkey 2010

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Racers race, take risks overtake, why? they are alphamales , competitive sportsmen

A WC is a way of keeping score of achievements

Those drivers concerned more with the end result, the WDC, NEVER garner the same respect in posterity as the above mentioned racers

Prost great driver, Senna, better respected

Anyone who drives or races enjoys the thrill of dominating your peers on track, I am braver than you etc

Vettel in Silverstone and Germany wanted to race, wanted to overtake etc

I sometimes wonder why some Alonso fans watch the races, why not just follow the results?

 

[Slyboogy]

Is he challenging for the title "Unluckiest Driver of the Year"?

Think it's a conspiracy....Toro Rosso have given Alguersuari chance after chance, and want Ricciardo in, best way to get those both drivers is to get rid of Buemi.

Seriously though, he does have some serious bad luck, had it last year too.

I really don't think that was worth a penalty, if I was him, the next GP I wouldn't qualify as I would waste tyres and be at the back end of the grid anyway.

 

[Slyboogy]

I sometimes wonder why some Alonso fans watch the races, why not just follow the results?

Enough of that....he can say the same for some Hamilton fans.

Just let it go

 

[ExtremeNinja]

You critisised Vettel for not attempting to make a pass, saying if it had been Hamilton he would have attempted such. You critisised his skills based on a ipse dixit and irrelevent circumstance. The whole undertow here is that you have low regard for his race craft all based on the fact he doesn't do the stupid move or being a driver he is not. He learnt well from Turkey 2010

I said if it were Hamilton, Alonso or Webber they would have made the pass. It's disappointing that Vettel didn't. I'm not sure what an ipse dixit is or an undertow and I am not sure how you evaluate my appraisal of Vettel's performance today as driver bashing. Can we be adults please. This is rather childish.

 

[Sarinaide]

So you are saying that Alonso only races for results? I thought thats what all the leading drivers do. (tries to figure out how Alonso fits into the last 30 posts)

So if Vettel won 5 WDC and Hamilton won 1, Hamilton would be held in higher regard because of his style, if that is not the most bias/subjective opinion around.

PS: in response to cookinflatsix post.

 

[Josh]

It's pretty simple: at the end of the day, Vettel didn't overtake Massa. Whether that was due to his brakes, not wanting to take risks or not being a racer is something which can be (and has been) discussed plenty of times with neither side winning the argument and it will not happen now, so let's put an end to it, shall we? It's not going anywhere.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

It's pretty simple: at the end of the day, Vettel didn't overtake Massa. Whether that was due to his brakes, not wanting to take risks or not being a racer is something which can be (and has been) discussed plenty of times with neither side winning the argument and it will not happen now, so let's put an end to it, shall we? It's not going anywhere.

Yep. I think that belongs in the Sebastian Vettel thread. Perfectly reasonable to discuss, but when we start moving away from an appraisal of today's race we're getting a little lost on this thread.

 

[FB]

To quote Meatloaf & Jim Steinman - You took the words right out of my mouth Strangled.

 

[Sarinaide]

So I dare go back to talking about Ferrari's performance. There is an article on this site where Fernando has pretty much said that second was absolutely fantastic factoring in the struggles getting the tyres on, now I know Alonso normally does exceed the cars potential. But I would like to say that I was thoroughly impressed with Massa's race, he didn't lay down for Vettel and equally deserved a 4th spot.

On to Hungary and hopefully heat, so I can asses just how close Ferrari actually are to the leaders.

 

[Brogan]

A quick round up.

Alonso's Ferrari passed its post-race fuel inspection, says team principal Stefano Domenicali.
FIA has also clarified it saw nothing wrong with Mark Webber slowing down to pick up Alonso.
FIA also says that although Heidfeld did not serve his drive-through penalty for the collision with di Resta, matter is closed as he DNFed.

All from Twitter.

Regarding the last point, didn't it use to be the case that any penalty not served in the race would be carried over?

 

[johnnoble1990]

I have already pointed out, he and Webber don't exactly have a great car for overtaking due to various disadvantages, with KERS, DRS etc. the car isn't built for straight line mostly corners. They will always lose out unless they have much fresher tyres.

Fernando Alonso in China no problem there, Button in Australia and China 2010....I think you should remember that Webber hasn't finished ahead of Vettel since Monza 2010, until now.

I don't think you are remembering any of these races correctly. The two races you have picked out Lewis was arguably quicker than Jenson, but Jenson famously won them with excellent strategy calls. In Australia, Lewis started 11th and Jenson 4th. On lap 2 Lewis was already ahead of Jenson. Then a few laps later we had a safety car and Jenson pitted for slicks early. The consequence was that eventually Jenson found himself in 2nd and Lewis in 10th. Lewis then had an incredible race overtaking a number of drivers but had his day spoiled by Mark Webber who crashed into him twice, including a few laps from the end. Despite all this drama Lewis brought the car home only 20 something seconds behind Jenson, albeit around 6th place.

I won't bother forming an argument for China where Lewis finished in 2nd place, 1 second behind Jenson. Did you just pick out the two races that Jenson has happened to win for Mclaren where he didn't crash into to Lewis?

As for China, i can't really remember Alonso's race that well but it can't have been as bad as Vettel's today? It is true that Red Bull's car isn't designed for overtaking, but that doesn't explain a few of the fundamental mistakes that he made?