Grand Prix 2011 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

It's turning out to be a strange old season

Mixed conditions and poor pit stops paved the way to an enthralling race, while it had one of the lowest overtaking figures of the year, it certainly showed that overtaking isn't the be all and end all of grand prix racing, however the two Mclaren drivers showed that overtaking can be exciting.

Of the runners and riders, Ferrari have made the biggest gain and maybe, just maybe, Red Bull have lost their monopoly over the top step of the podium and we might finally have a championship, however I'm sure I have said this after China and Canada.......

The curious case of Mclaren continued apace this weekend as they had no pace, found pace and then lost it again. In the changeable conditions at the start of the race, Hamilton and Button charged through the field until the dry conditions when the natural order reasertied themselves, however, it is hard to see how they really showed in fully dry conditions as Button lost a wheel nut early on and Hamilton had to fuel save for the latter part of the race.

Going into the German Grand Prix, Red Bull will understandably be favourites as Sebastian Vettel looks to extend his lead at the top of the championship as he continues in his quest for back to back champions (and the youngest to do so before I'm mistaken) but he'll have to fight off a resurgant Mark Webber who is finally challenging his team mate again after a slow start to the season after he struggled to acclimatise to the Pirelli tyres, he was also stung by the team orders at the end of the last Grand Prix, so you can't bet against him for at least a podium position next weekend.

Renault seem to have disappeared after a strong start to the season, Vitaly Petrov seems to have fallen back into 2010 mode after a strong start to the season. Nick Heidfeld has fared better recently and still features in the lower ends of the points, however a podium seems a long way away, a theory solidified as their side exhausts have had to be abandonded due to the propsed rules, however with the debate going on at the moment, this may not be the case after all.

Mercedes seem to have found pace recently, Rosberg is constintely in the midle of the points while Schumacher seems more like himself again, in more ways than one.......... But at his home grand prix, he will be keen to show that he still has it, along with a large number of German drivers, the most represented country on the grid, so many people will be keen to show that they are the best German on the grid.

Team lotus made it into Q2 again which is a major achievment for them and shows that they are getting closer to the midfield and their major goal of getting points before the end of the year so they can beat Virgin and Hispania.

This year we return to the Nurburgring as part of the deal is that the circuit alternates with Hockenheim, last time we were there was in 2009 where Mark Webber won his first grand prix in the Red Bull. In recent memory Nurburgring will be best remembered for the crazy race in 2007 where a heavy rain shower caused havoc at the start of the race and famously allowed Markus Winkelhock to lead the race in his Spyker, joining the elite of people who led a race in their first (and only race)

For Galahad's excellent circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/nurburgring/

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

So Vettel couldn't get past Massa on the road. One race doesn't mean he can't overtake. He may not have been at one with the car, he definitely had some kind of brake issue.
Alonso couldn't get past Petrov at Abu Dhabi last year, Hamilton couldn't get past Sutil at Spa last year (I think).
Some people need a dose of realism.

I'm surprised no-one seems to be talking about how Ferrari threw away Massa's 4th place with that shocking pit stop. I remember thinking before they stopped that Massa would do well to pit before Vettel; with Ferrari's pit box being after red Bull's, if they went in together Vettel would come to a stop first and therefore get moving first, possibly making Massa have to give way on the release. I was surprised that Ferrari didn't think of that one, but as it turned out Massa's stop was so poor anyway that he was still stationary as Vettel went past.

I'm just happy, as a Hamilton fan, to see such a brilliant, controlled drive by him and a well-deserved win. Alonso and Webber drove great races too; I don't think the lead that either driver had (barring pit stop phases) ever went above 4 seconds for the whole race.

p.s. Is Martin's job safe now?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

On to Hungary and hopefully heat, so I can asses just how close Ferrari actually are to the leaders.

Are you suggesting that today's race was irrelevant? It seems that you are suggesting that todays result should be null and void because the sun wasn't shining. I should also point out that Ferrari's pace relative to thier competitors will differ from circuit to circuit. Notice that I used the word 'competitors' rather than 'leaders' so as not to weight my statement with a bias.

In my opinion, McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull were equal machinery today, or as close at least as we are likely to ever see. What we saw today was a driver's race where, Vettel and Massa aside, the results were based on the performances of the guys in the cockpits. In these sorts of conditions there will always be a winner and a loser as with in any other race. The guy who won tahe race was the guy who put in the best drive. You said so yourself in the poll. Given that it was so close and you have stated that Lewis drove a better race than Fernando it can only be concluded that you believe that if Fernando had put in a better performance he would have won the race. On that point, I would agree with you.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

A mention too for Adrian Sutil and Force India. We didn't see much of him unfortunately, but a great result for him and the team; such a pity for them and for Paul di Resta in particular that Quick Nick punted him off on the first lap, otherwise it might have been even better for them.

 

[Irishgreen]

Vettel may be WDC but apart from Alonso and Kobayashi who else would have pulled off the moves Hamilton pulled today?

 

[Il_leone]

p.s. Is Martin's job safe now?[/quote]

That was some stupid rumour mongering designed if anything to disrupt Mclaren...who would be stupid enough to change their team boss mid season and cause uproar and confusion unless you've been a naughty boy like Flavio Briatore

 

[Il_leone]

Vettel is a lousy overtaker . Today he proved it again . As for the Red Bull being not designed well for overtaking, Webber seems to find ways to overtake

Its a known fact Vettel has won all his races bar 1 when he leads into the first corner and he has won all his races bar 1 starting from the front row of the grid

 

[Pacific Ocean Blue]

The new Nurburgring was brought into use mainly because of the difficulty experienced getting safety crews around the old one. After Lauda's accident there were no safety personnel on hand, thus three drivers who had stopped for a variety of reasons took it on themselves to drag Lauda from his burning car.
There was no problem with lack of seeing cars, 300,000 people would attend a GP at the North Circuit.
However, they didn't all necassarily pay, a big problem for the people with a vested interest in raking in money!

"No matter what sentiments you feel for Nurburgring, no matter how roundly you condemn the place, you would have to concede that Hockenheim is no kind of an answer. Niki Lauda's terrible accident in 1976 brought to light the 'Ring's major shortcoming: it is too long to be adequately marshalled. There can be no arguments about that. The situation was summed up by John Watson: "I'd much rather race at the 'Ring, said John Watson, "but I'd rather survive at Hockenheim".

Autocourse, 1977-78, page 135

 

[Quintessentially]

A mistake by going offline when he wasn't in a situation to overtake makes him not have the ability overtake? Granted he locked up and missed the chicane when fighting with Massa, but he wasn't in a position anyway to overtake Massa there, he nearly ran into the back of Massa as he locked up, avoided a collision and went off.

Of course he wasn't going to overtake Massa at the corner. The intention was to get close enough to get the run out. Seeing as you now remember the pass on Hamilton in China, I’m sure you can see the similarities. He was just never able to master it this time around and I think the word you're looking for is hackneyed 'racecraft'.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Vettel is a lousy overtaker . Today he proved it again . As for the Red Bull being not designed well for overtaking, Webber seems to find ways to overtake

Its a known fact Vettel has won all his races bar 1 when he leads into the first corner and he has won all his races bar 1 starting from the front row of the grid

With his full career to date as evidence, this is now irrefutable. The only person who can dispose this as myth is Vettel himself and he has the rest of his career to do so. I predicted before the race that Vettel would be unable to challenge for victory unless through the attrition of his competitors. I would have gladly accepted for him to have proven me wrong today but he simply didn't. When placed in a race today with his advantage nullified he couldn't play with the big boys.

He is young and has plenty of time to improve, but he's not quite there yet. In saying that, I think that it is more racing instinct that he is lacking and I'm not sure this is something you can really learn. If Red Bull can remain in front and keep Vettel out of wheel to wheel racing then he has proved tha he is more than capable of delivering victories. When Red Bull no longer have the fastest car I would want someone else sitting in his seat for a chance at winning races and championships.

 

[Brogan]

The side discussion on Vettel is probably better suited to this thread: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/sebastian-vettel.2464/

 

[Irishgreen]

Vettel is a lousy overtaker . Today he proved it again . As for the Red Bull being not designed well for overtaking, Webber seems to find ways to overtake

Its a known fact Vettel has won all his races bar 1 when he leads into the first corner and he has won all his races bar 1 starting from the front row of the grid

But what of his overtake on Massa in the pits?????

 

[FB]

Before this thread descends into 606 style name calling and "my drivers better than yours" could I please ask that all contributors try to keep their observations objective and positive. We had a great race today but some on here are taking an opportunity to let their bias and personal likes and dislikes come to the fore which is not conducive to a harmonious forum.

Thank you

FB

 

[Quintessentially]

A quick round up.

Alonso's Ferrari passed its post-race fuel inspection, says team principal Stefano Domenicali.
FIA has also clarified it saw nothing wrong with Mark Webber slowing down to pick up Alonso.
FIA also says that although Heidfeld did not serve his drive-through penalty for the collision with di Resta, matter is closed as he DNFed.

All from Twitter.

Regarding the last point, didn't it use to be the case that any penalty not served in the race would be carried over?

More feather in Todt's cap I say. I actually enjoyed watching the Webber Alonso ride.

 

[Irishgreen]

.....which is not conducive to a harmonious forum.
I'm all for a bit of music.Thunderstruck anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSAHHd7q8BU

 

[Sarinaide]

The guy who won tahe race was the guy who put in the best drive. You said so yourself in the poll. Given that it was so close and you have stated that Lewis drove a better race than Fernando it can only be concluded that you believe that if Fernando had put in a better performance he would have won the race. On that point, I would agree with you.

I did say something of the sort, though I accept that Ferrari were once again a good .100 atleast off the consistent pace of McLaren and possibly not so much RBR. I don't think you can really say that Ferrari were on, apart from FP1 they were consistently and well off the leaders pace, and in Qualification if you take only Q3 when it matters .400 off Webber and .200 off Hamilton, this to me suggests that Ferrari were genuinely slower than the contenders. I may have also seen one Fastest lap from Alonso while numerous from Hamilton, Webber and the ultimate I think was with Vettel. In terms of tiers I think the contenders/leaders are all in the same league, though Ferrari have the wooden spoon in that regard no matter how much it be touched up.

Yes Hamilton and McLaren deserved the win today in difficult conditions, I think they had the best aero package and had superior traction of the contending cars, though nobody really drove away with it. Alonso may have had a chance to win but at the end of the day as I said before, if you offered 2nd I would have taken it, and a Podium is a great result.

What I meant by sunshine and heat is that in conditions where there can be no disadvantage or gremlins to compete with, I would like to see how far Ferrari are interms of catching RBR and McLaren, and can the team produce another race winning package without the need for mitigating/intervening circumstances.

 

[GeoffP]

- well, that was fun!

However, McLaren had some great successes, although probably the greatest yesterday - what a step forward in qualifying - Lewis was on fire, it would have taken a confident man to compete with him today....

Ferrari - it's a shame Jenson had reliability problems, it would have been telling to see whether Ferrari was on average up there with McLaren, it was starting to look like McLaren were the 2nd best car, but recent races seem to be implying McLaren are pushing closer to the edge to get the position they think they can fight for - have you ever seem a better definition of how far teams will push, and how accurately they'll push to get there!

Red Bull, again the car of choice, the teammates could have had the fastest lap all through the race - Seb didn't prove himself - he definitely loses motivation at the start of a race if he isn't competing for the front, and did not prove his overtaking (although, from ealrier threads, I think this is part of his growth within F1). Mark was on frire, but just couldn't hold the race together, I think he should have been within 4 secs of the finishing time, and he is the only one who can answer why he wasn't. Halfway through the season has never done the Aussie favours, I really look forward to the 2nd half of 2011 for Mark to show what his determination can achieve, he seems motivated, and that's a big deal for where he sits in the team's timings, unfortunately the WDC seems to have slipped from the realistic realms of anyone but Seb.

What can I say - delights all the way, and no absolute answers! A selection of leaders, and probably 100% of fans would have had Lewis leading at some point in the race, but 85% of those would have had him off the top spot at the end...

This season is definitely shaping up, but where's the smart money for H2? Red Bull have the best solution, Ferrari are up there with a winning line up, but McLaren are motivated and prepared to roll the dice - Love it!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I did say something of the sort, though I accept that Ferrari were once again a good .100 atleast off the consistent pace of McLaren and possibly not so much RBR. I don't think you can really say that Ferrari were on, apart from FP1 they were consistently and well off the leaders pace, and in Qualification if you take only Q3 when it matters .400 off Webber and .200 off Hamilton, this to me suggests that Ferrari were genuinely slower than the contenders. I may have also seen one Fastest lap from Alonso while numerous from Hamilton, Webber and the ultimate I think was with Vettel. In terms of tiers I think the contenders/leaders are all in the same league, though Ferrari have the wooden spoon in that regard no matter how much it be touched up.

Yes Hamilton and McLaren deserved the win today in difficult conditions, I think they had the best aero package and had superior traction of the contending cars, though nobody really drove away with it. Alonso may have had a chance to win but at the end of the day as I said before, if you offered 2nd I would have taken it, and a Podium is a great result.

What I meant by sunshine and heat is that in conditions where there can be no disadvantage or gremlins to compete with, I would like to see how far Ferrari are interms of catching RBR and McLaren, and can the team produce another race winning package without the need for mitigating/intervening circumstances.

Hmm. Mitigating circumstances. Interesting. Gremlins. Interesting. Disadvantage. Interesting. Slower car. Interesting. Ferarri catching McLaren. Interesting.

Looksnlike Ferrari have a lot of work to do if they are going to stay ahead of HRT. Especially with all this adversity they are facing.

 

[Sarinaide]

Hmm. Mitigating circumstances. Interesting. Gremlins. Interesting. Disadvantage. Interesting. Slower car. Interesting. Ferarri catching McLaren. Interesting.

Looksnlike Ferrari have a lot of work to do if they are going to stay ahead of HRT. Especially with all this adversity they are facing.

Again suggesting completely irrelevent scenario's, of the three top teams Ferrari are filling in between the Mclaren and Red Bull, you only need the constructors championship to suggest that, you only need to look how at Red Bull 6 race wins and numerous 1-2's or Podium lock outs......McLaren have 3 race wins and a few other good results. In Ferrari's instance the only win came in a weekend where McLaren and RB had their hands tied behind their backs with no EBD, other than that it has been a story of trying to catch up.

If Ferrari are as quick as you suggest and so on a par with RBR and McLaren then the metronomical and somewhat machine like efficiency of Alonso achieving podiums would see a completely different WDC table, the reason being. Redbull are the most consistent and balanced package (results), McLaren despite being a fast car have had reliability and setup problems for a short while yet by many Mc fans on this site alone suggesting that McLaren is faster than the RB, that is probably true, on power of machinery less aerodynamics McLaren is ahead of everyone....Then you get Scuderia Ferrari acting tail gunner.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

Just watched the whole race on Sky+, great drive from Hamilton but an honourable mention to Alonso and Sutil for also performing well.
All this 'he won because his car was the best, he didn't because his car was miles off the pace' nonsense is a bit tedious to be honest. Sadly the 'best car' debate will always be a get-out clause for people who just can't stand anyone but their favourite driver winning, but the fact is due to the very nature of F1 there will always be a 'best car' because (and this may surprise a few of you) F1 is not a spec series. There are plenty of those around though (Indycar, GP2/3 etc) so perhaps those might be more to your liking.
We have overtaking now (and less than 1/3 of overtakes are DRS assisted) so let's just enjoy the fact that we are seeing proper exciting races and not forget that it wasn't that long ago (i.e. 2008) that people were bemoaning the lack of action in races.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Again suggesting completely irrelevent scenario's, of the three top teams Ferrari are filling in between the Mclaren and Red Bull, you only need the constructors championship to suggest that, you only need to look how at Red Bull 6 race wins and numerous 1-2's or Podium lock outs......McLaren have 3 race wins and a few other good results. In Ferrari's instance the only win came in a weekend where McLaren and RB had their hands tied behind their backs with no EBD, other than that it has been a story of trying to catch up.

If Ferrari are as quick as you suggest and so on a par with RBR and McLaren then the metronomical and somewhat machine like efficiency of Alonso achieving podiums would see a completely different WDC table, the reason being. Redbull are the most consistent and balanced package (results), McLaren despite being a fast car have had reliability and setup problems for a short while yet by many Mc fans on this site alone suggesting that McLaren is faster than the RB, that is probably true, on power of machinery less aerodynamics McLaren is ahead of everyone....Then you get Scuderia Ferrari acting tail gunner.

This is the German GP thread. How is any of what you just said at all relevant?