Grand Prix 2010 Bahrain Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying and Race Discussion

Galahad · 13 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Thanks genji. The psychology of Q3 in this new format interests me.

Let's imagine that this is the situation:
Massa is very anxious to put a marker down on Alonso right from the start. He knows Fernando has been quicker in practice, and can't afford to concede position within the team. For him there is no other option to go flat out in qualifying and hope that it will be enough to beat, or at least roughly equal, his team mate.

Alonso on the other hand is very conscious of the new tyre regs. His strength is in setting those strong consistent times lap after lap in the races. He knows there are no points awarded on Saturday, so he drives to the splits, keeps himself in the mix, without taking too much from the tyres. For him the battle doesn't start until tomorrow.

Is that right? I have no idea. It's an intriguing thought (and clearly not just for the Ferrari drivers either).

snowy · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Ferrari are changing Felipe Massa's engine, apparently it is behaving oddly. :unsure:

http://www.f1technical.net/news/14397?sid=cc032e9958fe8d6e1dca73b0b491daf2

Cancer Cowboy · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

snowy said:
Ferrari are changing Felipe Massa's engine, apparently it is behaving oddly.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/14397?sid=cc032e9958fe8d6e1dca73b0b491daf2

So the Ferrari is the first team to change an engine this year? Wasn't expecting that.

fat jez · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

snowy said:
Ferrari are changing Felipe Massa's engine, apparently it is behaving oddly.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/14397?sid=cc032e9958fe8d6e1dca73b0b491daf2

How come they can change it without penalty? Does the penalty only apply when using a 9th engine in the season now? In which case, presumably that's Mass one engine down for the whole season, since I don't think they can fix it.

Rumours of Alonso being seen with a bag of Tate & Lyle are apparently unfounded LOL

Muddytalker · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Don't they have one 'joker' to play during the season, one engine change without penalty?

Autosport are reporting both Massa and Alonso are changing engines - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82119 And that as it's the start of the season they can change without penalty.

snowy · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

So the cunning thing to do would be to use the engines with the abnormalities for all future practice and qualifying sessions, changing to a far fresher engine for each subsequent race... :whistle:

genji · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

If I read that right ("We will change the engine on Alonso's car for the same precautionary measure which determined the previous decision") then they're changing Alonso's engine because Massa's showed abnormalities.

If Alonso's didn't show abnormalities (given we don't know what those abnormalities were and may have been related to this event - heat or the bumpy circuit or something), then why change it? Their replacement engines might also share the same abnormalities if there's a possibility that Alonso's apparently fine first engine does.

I wonder what Sauber and STR will make of it?

Brogan · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Using both jokers before the first race leaves them no safety net for the rest of the season.

Interesting when the other teams using Ferrari engines haven't complained of any issues.

genji · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I don't think there are jokers any more, are there? They just have to manage eight engines and if they use a ninth they get penalised.

Muddytalker · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Of course, genji, you are spot on :thumbsup:

genji · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

In the post-race BBC forum show Martin Whitmarsh has suggested that after today they'll be looking at working with Bridgestone to make the tyres more marginal and

mandating two pit stops - this year (he hopes banning the stepped diffuser will make things more exciting from 2011).

I was so glad when the threatened minimum two pit stops didn't go through a few weeks ago. I think mandating one stop is bad, as is forcing the drivers to start on their qualifying tyres.

I don't like the way FOTA think sometimes.

snowy · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The race wasn't actually as boring as some were making it out to be, historically the Bahrain GP has never been thrilling. Adding a big wiggly section of slow turns was never going to improve the racing. The commentary and lack of vision on the part of the TV producer on he other hand, were a problem. They should have attempted to convey some of the action further down the field and in particular the threat posed to Felipe Massa once Lewis had got past Nico Rosberg. Lewis's pace was significantly quicker than one would have expected given that he qualified 1 second off it!

Lap	Rosberg		Hamilton	Massa		Alonso		Vettel

15	02:03.726	02:06.059	02:03.161	02:02.875	02:02.460

16	02:05.842	02:20.765	02:02.668	02:05.043	02:02.394

17	02:21.500	02:00.447	02:04.902	02:19.372	02:05.068

18	02:01.683	02:02.131	02:19.728	02:01.640	02:20.578

19	02:02.338	02:00.940	02:00.117	02:01.619	02:01.738

20	02:01.758	02:01.211	02:00.701	02:01.361	02:01.506

21	02:01.351	02:00.825	02:00.818	02:01.042	02:01.192

22	02:01.462	02:00.876	02:00.878	02:00.491	02:00.999

23	02:01.201	02:00.842	02:00.723	02:01.235	02:01.152

24	02:01.520	02:00.896	02:01.027	02:00.732	02:00.569

25	02:01.370	02:00.584	02:00.756	02:00.789	02:00.832

26	02:02.045	02:00.512	02:00.535	02:00.637	02:00.724

27	02:01.300	02:00.194	02:00.420	02:00.579	02:01.124

28	02:01.247	02:00.377	02:00.760	02:00.506	02:00.320

29	02:01.273	02:00.036	02:00.239	01:59.583	02:00.500

30	02:01.341	02:00.355	02:00.371	02:00.019	02:00.421

31	02:01.142	02:00.325	02:00.457	02:00.451	02:00.283

32	02:00.625	02:00.368	02:00.104	02:01.206	02:00.218

33	02:00.903	01:59.706	02:00.262	02:00.411	02:01.574

34	02:01.104	02:00.150	02:02.013	02:02.456	02:04.102

35	02:00.889	02:00.062	02:02.378	01:59.477	02:05.060

Boyle · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I was certainly expecting more to happen towards the end of the race. It didn't help that Alonso was given a free-pass to victory as it would have been excellent to see him and Vettel battle it out, with Massa lurking behind. However, I expected more from Schumacher, Button and Webber, they were close since the pit stops but didn't really have a go at overtaking. I suppose they can be forgiven, though, as they didn't really have much inclination how hard they could push without shredding the tyres. Jenson was himself surprised at how well they held out. Didn't see Hamilton holding back though!

Having learned how hard they can push their tyres, I expect better racing at Melbourne.

genji · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

No, I didn't find it boring and I'm worried that FOTA will use lack of nailbiting wheel-to-wheel combat at the front to push through extreme artificiality. I thought the race felt authentic (despite the leaders starting on worn tyres and being obliged to stop to change compounds) and enjoyed a lot of it.

The TV feed is par for the course, I think. It often cuts away from action that you can see developing in live timing, and pays almost no attention to mid- or back of the field action.

Yes - the infield section was a big mistake. A two-minute lap was a big mistake. I didn't expect them not to get closer than six seconds to qualifying time, though, and I expected a bit more variation in tyre usage. It appears they're all consummately capable of managing tyre wear and the cars are all built to facilitate that. I was really surprised the Red Bull didn't trash its tyres at all with what I've heard (and probably mistakenly bought) about its exhaust system.

I'm not too worried about McLaren's pace (and Hamilton achieved a great result given what he had, IMO) given the length of their car and the +1 minute (!) sector 2 - I remember Ferrari always used to favour longer wheelbase cars and it used to hurt them.

Malaysia should be good, and once they're back in Europe I expect the new regs to start coming to fruition. We don't need mandatory pit-stops or contrived handicaps.

Muddytalker · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

genji said:
In the post-race BBC forum show Martin Whitmarsh has suggested that after today they'll be looking at working with Bridgestone to make the tyres more marginal and mandating two pit stops - this year (he hopes banning the stepped diffuser will make things more exciting from 2011).

I was so glad when the threatened minimum two pit stops didn't go through a few weeks ago. I think mandating one stop is bad, as is forcing the drivers to start on their qualifying tyres.

I don't like the way FOTA think sometimes.

Please no. No other top form of motorsport has such rules as "you must race on these tyres, you must also use these tyres, you must also stop this many times", etc.

Just let the bu99ers race, please. FOTA are becoming useless as well, as each of them ultimately will lean towards whatever benefits them/their team.

I was amused to hear Michael's comments as well, which seemed to imply he didn't like the race becoming a long race which required car/tyre management, and preferred the old style of sprint to breaking point, replace, sprint again. Well of course you'd want that Michael, it's in that exact style that you won your titles. At 41, dare I suggest he can't hack a heavier car? I may be wrong though, and perhaps he was referring to having to make an engine last 2 or 3 races. In which case I would agree, this rule needs to be revisited, as it's affecting the racing when drivers are being told to 'ease off, we need the engine for the rest of the season'.

All in all though, these guys need to shut up and get on with it; IMHO of course.

McZiderRed · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Regarding FOTA changing the rules to force cars to stop twice, doesn't any FOTA vote on changing regs have to be unanimous? If so, then I can't see it happening. A car that's kind to its tyres and doing well in races won't vote to change... Would they?? :dunno:

One question about Webber (sorry if this has been brought up elsewhere already..) Did Webber overshoot his grid slot before the start? If he did, as the commentators intimated, then shouldn't he have incurred a penalty? I know he didn't jump the start, but he should surely have been penalised for missing his grid slot?

Boyle · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Muddytalker said:
I may be wrong though, and perhaps he was referring to having to make an engine last 2 or 3 races. In which case I would agree, this rule needs to be revisited, as it's affecting the racing when drivers are being told to 'ease off, we need the engine for the rest of the season'.

It certainly doesn't help the racing. If they want these rules to have the desired effect then give each team (at least) an engine for each race weekend so that can push until the end if there is a sniff of an extra place. With Bahrain being especially hard on reliability the racing was hindered even more so.

I think the last two years emphasises the point. Towards the end of both seasons drivers have been given the green light to push as hard as they want because conserving the engines for more races isn't a problem. Obviously, the fact that there's nothing to lose for many drivers or that they need to push to get an extra place in the standings helps. However, giving the teams a lot more engines for a season would undoubtedly help the racing especially in the early-mid stages of a season.

genji · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

McZiderRed said:
Regarding FOTA changing the rules to force cars to stop twice, doesn't any FOTA vote on changing regs have to be unanimous? If so, then I can't see it happening. A car that's kind to its tyres and doing well in races won't vote to change... Would they??

Only three teams voted for the mandatory two stops , so it didn't go through (McLaren were one of the three). There appears to be a groundswell of opinion that today's race was dull and therefore the new regs aren't working. Those three teams could use that to convince the other teams to approve it.

McZiderRed said:
One question about Webber (sorry if this has been brought up elsewhere already..) Did Webber overshoot his grid slot before the start? If he did, as the commentators intimated, then shouldn't he have incurred a penalty? I know he didn't jump the start, but he should surely have been penalised for missing his grid slot?

He was a metre over his mark but didn't jump the start. It's relative movement that incurs the penalty not, it seems, having a metre headstart.

On the engines issue, they have to reduce costs. I'm not averse to drivers nursing their cars during the race (but managing tyres during qualifying seems silly to me) - engines, tyres, brakes - I think that should lead to interesting racing.

McZiderRed · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Thanks for the reply genji. Cleared up a couple of things for me.

Let's hope 'they' don't use today's race as ammunition to introduce this ridiculous 2 stop rule then!

genji said:
He was a metre over his mark but didn't jump the start. It's relative movement that incurs the penalty not, it seems, having a metre headstart.

As I suspected. Bit of a naff rule, if you ask me! What's the point in having a grid slot then? Nothing against Webber in particular, you understand!

Just out of interest, what would have happened if the driver in pole position happens to overshoot his grid slot by oohhh, say, a metre?!

Brogan · 14 March 2010

Re: 2010 Bahrain GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

As GM's thread shows, there were actually 19 overtakes, not including those on the first lap:

Overtaking analysis - 2010

Grand Prix 2010 Bahrain Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying and Race Discussion

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