YDT?

P1

Race Winner
Contributor
FIA should not disadvantage mercedes vs red bull. Without Mercedes, this championship would be decided and we might as well stop watching. I think they are idiots to exclude Mercedes. They should have leveraged the opposite stance and said that Mercedes will now be allowed to join the test because they are a team which suffered tyre failure at Silverstone.
 

The Pits

Harumph. Again.
Valued Member
I think if the decision had changed, the obverse would be happening, and we would be seeing a call for a new tribunal to establish punishment, as the decision was rendered invalid due to the change in circumstances.

Personally, I think the current position is the best outcome, otherwise, this whole sorry saga would be dragged out even further.
 

The Pits

Harumph. Again.
Valued Member
Fair point, however, open to scrutiny. After all, the test is still denoted as the young driver test, albeit under a changed scope. It also would seem that the conditions of the test are constantly changing, and the proposed changes will likely not be fully implemented.

Who knows what they lawyers at Mercedes are looking through at the moment.
 

P1

Race Winner
Contributor
I think Mercedes is unfairly punished here. At the end of the day Mercedes has not had the opportunity to test new aero parts, nor do they have any usable tire test data - i.e. access to performance data which is correlatable to an actual production race tire to be used in 2H13.

The tribunal made a hugely anti-Mercedes decision which has been further compounded. They should appeal it in the interests of fair competition.
 

The Pits

Harumph. Again.
Valued Member
The other teams are not going to have the opportunity to test new parts either, I am not certain about tyre data, I do not know how far from the same conditions the test will actually be.

And I am not sure how much we can actually verify regarding the Mercedes test, as there were no observers there.
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
Since the test Mercedes have scored 3 pole positions and a 1st, 2nd and 1st in the races quite damming evidence that they gained enormously from the illegal test.

This test combined with the YDT is simply to give the other teams the same opportunity.....

If people don't see this as being fair then that is their problem not the FIA's.
 

Blog Zbod

Podium Finisher
Since the test Mercedes have scored 3 pole positions and a 1st, 2nd and 1st in the races quite damming evidence that they gained enormously from the illegal test.

This test combined with the YDT is simply to give the other teams the same opportunity.....

If people don't see this as being fair then that is their problem not the FIA's.
Mercedes knew it was dodgy business, else they wouldn't have inquired to the FIA about it.

Lauda knew they were guilty as sin and feared the wrath of G-d was about to descend upon on them, else he wouldn't have struck up the secret ca$h penance deal with Bernie (which Brawn and Wolff rejected).

Had Mercedes not been an engine supplier, and had the Mercedes shareholder's committee not already served notice they would withdraw the team (and their engines) from the sport if the team were punished, the punishment would have been far more severe. And more fitting of the offence. Probably at least exclusion from the WDC or a fine of €1 million or both.
 

P1

Race Winner
Contributor
Since the test Mercedes have scored 3 pole positions and a 1st, 2nd and 1st in the races quite damming evidence that they gained enormously from the illegal test.

This test combined with the YDT is simply to give the other teams the same opportunity.....

If people don't see this as being fair then that is their problem not the FIA's.

They also scored 3 pole positions before the test. So that statistic is meaningless.
 

P1

Race Winner
Contributor
The other teams are not going to have the opportunity to test new parts either, I am not certain about tyre data, I do not know how far from the same conditions the test will actually be.

And I am not sure how much we can actually verify regarding the Mercedes test, as there were no observers there.

Not true. Teams can use new parts in the YDT. And under the now relaxed rules, race drivers can test those new parts.

This article implies that originally YDs were allowed to work on car development (aka new parts) while race drivers were not.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108499/

However as we know that restriction was removed.

The records of the Mercedes tribunal indicate Mercedes did not work on new parts. Further they couidn't have because if you run new parts in a tire test, you lose the baseline, thereby negating any insight on the tires. Common sense tells you that they couldn't have run new parts during the tire test.

As for Red Bull - well ignore what they say. Common sense also says that if your competitor beats you, it is in your interest for people to percieve they are cheating. How else would you justify your lack of performance. Whoever posted "try telling that to red bull" is just making a completely meaningless argument. Its like try telling the Labor party leader that the Conservative party is right on any issue - its a futile exercise and not worth discussing. The role of the opposition is to oppose.
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
They also scored 3 pole positions before the test. So that statistic is meaningless.

But the race statistic is not meaningless I have already agreed they had a fast qualifying car but they didn't have a fast race car which the do have since the illegal test, that in my book is not a coincidence...
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
By whatever means they found it, I for one am grateful. This afternoon we may just get a race between two of the best on the grid, engaged in a proper dogfight. Otherwise Herr Vettel will just drive off into the distance and we will be left wondering "when the **** is Red Bull going to get any competition?" ... again ... still ... some more ... :bored::sleeping:
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
Not true. Teams can use new parts in the YDT. And under the now relaxed rules, race drivers can test those new parts.

This article implies that originally YDs were allowed to work on car development (aka new parts) while race drivers were not.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108499/


I'm not sure what you are saying but the fact is nobody knows if Mercedes ran new parts or not, the fact also is they did use their race drivers to test tyres and optimum set up to make those tyres last and race better.

How on earth you can say that they gained nothing from the test when Mercedes race results since the test blatantly prove otherwise.

Like I have said so often there is a certain demograph that will try and say and convince the rest of us that Mercedes gained nothing from the test even when the facts that they did are screaming at them, and this reasoning is based on nothing more than their support for a certain driver....

One of my favourite quotes from one of my favourite films says it all.

"You're sellin' bull and I ain't buying any."
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
By whatever means they found it, I for one am grateful. This afternoon we may just get a race between two of the best on the grid, engaged in a proper dogfight. Otherwise Herr Vettel will just drive off into the distance and we will be left wondering "when the **** is Red Bull going to get any competition?" ... again ... still ... some more ... :bored::sleeping:

That may be true fenders but F1 is not a handycap series we don't put weight onto a car just because it is winning a lot it is for the others to catch up legally and not to gain advantage illegally and for their fans to start sobbing when they get caught out and are penalized for cheating, is quite honestly just funny and then to try and justify it by saying at least the championship is closer now, is absolutely no justification at all....

What is the point if winning if that win hasn't come about fairly? I would rather Red Bull carried on winning forever than see another team beat them by circumnavigating the rules.

I know all about suspect flexy wings and this that and the other but the fact is no matter how hard the FIA tried by increasing the strength of the tests they could not make those wings flex beyond permitted parameters and so they had no choice but to judge them as being legal....
 

KekeTheKing

Banned
Supporter
Is it really okay for the FIA to take away time in the car from the young drivers to appease the teams over testgate?

Of course not. Which is why I'm relieved they'll only miss one day.

This is also a reason I believe the FIA would have never punished Sam Bird, which in essence was what the original "penalty" was following the Tribunal.
 

KekeTheKing

Banned
Supporter
As I noted in my second post in this thread, I realize that not everybody will see things from my perspective on this one, but I feel compelled to lay things out from start to finish for the first (and last?) time.

We know Pirelli asked other teams to test for them. Red Bull declined, and as Champions 3 times running, I can understand that position. Ferrari and Massa did indeed take them up on the offer the week before Spain without anyone's knowledge. Very little is known about that test still. Mercedes indicated they knew extensive part testing occurred. At some point within the next two weeks, Ross Brawn corresponds with Charles Whiting about the possibility that a 2013 machine could be used to test 2014 Spec Pirelli's. Charlie inquires with FIA lawyers. They know about Pirelli's test agreement, and give the go-ahead. Mercedes end up testing 900km (of 1000) on experimental 2014 rubber that will almost certainly never see the light of day, most likely because the additional testing will lead to significant changes ahead.

Here's where it gets interesting.

For reasons unknown, Whiting brings up the Mercedes test at a GPDA directors meeting in Monaco. I believe he was so candid because he had done his due diligence with the lawyers representing the Governing Body. Vettel, being a director, relays this information to his team who then launch into hysterics and protest to the Stewards with Ferrari hopping on board as well. It quickly becomes clear that the FIA indeed had (some) knowledge of the Pirelli test, and they would appear incompetent over the coming weeks in the run-up to the Tribunal as bits of info dripped out.

After weeks of speculation, innuendo, and hyperbole, the FIA was given an "out" by Mercedes when they themselves suggested that they could accept a "punishment" of being excluded from the upcoming Young Drivers Test. I think it's likely that Mercedes would have walked away with less of a "sentence" if it weren't for this olive branch to the other outfits. The fact remains that the team was merely "reprimanded" by the Governing Body. Their own lawyers approved the test, and it would have been an incredible miscarriage of justice if the first case seen by the newly commissioned International Court of Appeals was seen to be yet another example of an FIA Kangaroo Court. I don't think Jean and the boys at the FIA were pleased that they were made to look completely foolish on a number of accounts throughout the whole ordeal. But I do give them credit for a fair verdict in light of their legal departments acquiescence to the test. Two teams were particularly displeased with this ruling, Red Bull and somewhat ironically, the other team involved in private testing, Ferrari.

The events of the British GP presented a golden opportunity for the two most aggrieved parties of the so called "test-gate". The sport was in crisis mode when it became all too apparent that something was amiss with either Pirelli's product, or the way they were being used. Without hesitation, Ferrari and Red Bull suggested that instead of going ahead with the Young Drivers Test, race drivers should be used to help Pirelli solve whatever problems they might have. And almost equally as fast, the FIA agreed that this would be a suitable course of action. Nevermind the fact that the tire supplier hadn't even issued a statement as to the root cause of the troubles. So not only was this a golden opportunity for the teams, the FIA got to kill two birds with one stone here by appeasing the outfits that had complained so vociferously, and by turning the screws on the team that played them like a fiddle earlier in the year.

Mercedes tested potential 2014 tires. This test will feature 2013 rubber. Mercedes did not test parts, largely due to the fact that as Batman astutely points out, when you're doing back to back tests on different experimental sets of tires, the setup must remain the same to ensure reliable data. This test will be unlimited in parts testing. For these two reasons alone I see absolutely no comparison whatsoever in the testing undertaken by Mercedes with a Pirelli program, and the unbridled in season test now about to unfold. I recognize the fact that race drivers will only be given one day at the test, and I see this as an admission that they know full well that Pirelli's product is safe, and that 3 (even 4?) days testing of this kind of testing would quite literally leave Merc by the wayside. That is not the FIA's goal.

The FIA, in my mind, is trying to assert themselves as being in complete control of the sport again. Having been seen in recent weeks as having authorized what some still consider "secret and illegal" testing, and by presiding over a top series in which the tire manufacturer was briefed to create degradable tires, but appeared to have taken that mandate a bit too far and was now creating a possible safety risk. By acting swiftly in the manner in which they did, I can't help but feel this has been a deliberate act designed to send a message to both Mercedes and to the fans worldwide that they are still indeed the big dog on the block.
 
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