Yeah now I'm on it all the time. You might as well change my user name to "RasputinLives in the Media Section."
Vettel's next team mate SPECULATIONOMETER
- Thread starter Greenlantern101
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Bit of a sweeping statement. Best package I'd go with, hard to be sure he's the best driver.
You don't win four championships (Well I reckon he'll make if four this year.) on the trot without being the best, only Fangio and Schumacher have achieved that, and who's to say he won't make five on the bounce?
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Having said that I've probably put the mockers on it now...
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Having said that I've probably put the mockers on it now...
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My logic on this subject stems from Vettels overall results and not on a race by race basis so I don't see it as being flawed, even the best get beaten sometimes....
I believe after all this time it is a great injustice to say it is simply down to the car, yes the car has got something to do with it maybe a lot to do with it but there is another driver driving the same car and other teams have had great cars during that period of time as well.
I'm not a fan of Sebs in fact I find him more than slightly annoying (Not as annoying as Horner.) but I can't close my eyes to his talent and the things he has achieved in such a short time in F1 and at such a young age to boot....
I believe after all this time it is a great injustice to say it is simply down to the car, yes the car has got something to do with it maybe a lot to do with it but there is another driver driving the same car and other teams have had great cars during that period of time as well.
I'm not a fan of Sebs in fact I find him more than slightly annoying (Not as annoying as Horner.) but I can't close my eyes to his talent and the things he has achieved in such a short time in F1 and at such a young age to boot....
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After the way he completely showed up the field at Spa I don't think its that inaccurate. I think he made the Red Bull look a much better machine than it is and don't think he has anything to fear from anyone coming in.
I think I'll wait until we've seen an 'ace' (Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen) in the same car as Vettel before I call him the best.
Has Kimi ever had an 'ace' for a team mate? You call him an ace.
Just as I call Vettel an 'ace'. But I wouldn't call anyone the best until they had faced at least one driver out of those four, currently only Hamilton and Alonso have done that.
For me, you can't call anyone the best until they have beaten the best in equal machinery.
For me, you can't call anyone the best until they have beaten the best in equal machinery.
So Button and Massa are the best? They both beat those drivers you've named in equal machinery.
So many people keep saying this 'got to face the best thing' and I find it all a bit convenient to pull out when someone they don't like is winning everything. He gets in his car and beats everything that's put in front of him and has done it consistently now for 4 years which is something that none of the drivers you've mentioned can claim so I don't really see why we can't label him the best.
If we apply this logic the majority of great drivers can not be listed as 'the best of their time' as they never faced another top driver in the same equipment. Schumacher will have not been 'the best' by that logic neither would Jackie Stewart or even Fangio.
So many people keep saying this 'got to face the best thing' and I find it all a bit convenient to pull out when someone they don't like is winning everything. He gets in his car and beats everything that's put in front of him and has done it consistently now for 4 years which is something that none of the drivers you've mentioned can claim so I don't really see why we can't label him the best.
If we apply this logic the majority of great drivers can not be listed as 'the best of their time' as they never faced another top driver in the same equipment. Schumacher will have not been 'the best' by that logic neither would Jackie Stewart or even Fangio.
Also when Alonso and Hamilton faced each other in equal equipment for that one year they both had a dead heat(Lewis winning on count back) and ended up squabbling with each other so much they cost each other the title so not sure how that qualifies to making them rated higher than Vettel either.
Plus they only faced each other in equal equipment because it was Hamilton's first season and he hadn't established himself as one of the big players yet. Neither of them have taken on another of the big names since and neither have looked like wanting too.
Silly silly argument for a driver who will probably end the season with as many world championships to his name as the 3 drivers you've named have between them can not be called the best in the world at the moment.
Sorry. Rant over.
(Unless someone wants to wheel out the 'only in Adrian Newy cars' argument - in which case I'll direct you towards the Alonso thread where it was stated by various people who also wheel out this argument that Rory Byrne is just a good a car designer as Newy)
Plus they only faced each other in equal equipment because it was Hamilton's first season and he hadn't established himself as one of the big players yet. Neither of them have taken on another of the big names since and neither have looked like wanting too.
Silly silly argument for a driver who will probably end the season with as many world championships to his name as the 3 drivers you've named have between them can not be called the best in the world at the moment.
Sorry. Rant over.
(Unless someone wants to wheel out the 'only in Adrian Newy cars' argument - in which case I'll direct you towards the Alonso thread where it was stated by various people who also wheel out this argument that Rory Byrne is just a good a car designer as Newy)
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Everyone is allowed to judge a driver how they choose. If I say that I don't think a driver can be called the best because they haven't beaten the main competition during their era (edit! in equal machinery), does that make me wrong?
I'll just be quiet then.
I'll just be quiet then.
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Not wrong no-FIAt-please and you're probably the wrong person for me to be having this rant at. I'm not a Vettel super fan, never have been, never will be but I'm just tired of people hating him and not rating him just because he keeps winning everything and the excuses are getting weaker and weaker the more top performances he puts in and the idea (as suggested above) that he needs any help from the team to beat any team mate he has is just ridiculous.
But sorry no-FIAt-please my ire is probably mis-directed at you mate.
(But I will add he has beaten the main competition of his era....constantly!)
But sorry no-FIAt-please my ire is probably mis-directed at you mate.
(But I will add he has beaten the main competition of his era....constantly!)
Forgot to add in equal machinery... oops.
Vettel has won a Championship 5 races early in a car his team-mate failed to finish runner-up in.
He's overturned a 40 point deficit in the Championship, in which run he had to race twice from the back.
He's got more than three-quarters of Toro Rosso's historic Top 6 finishes, including a win.
The criticisms become ever more contrived because he's bloody brilliant.
He's overturned a 40 point deficit in the Championship, in which run he had to race twice from the back.
He's got more than three-quarters of Toro Rosso's historic Top 6 finishes, including a win.
The criticisms become ever more contrived because he's bloody brilliant.
Il_leone
World Champion
in reference to Fangio RasputinLives no-FIAt-please
His teammates were Peter Collins, Stirling Moss and Farina ..all proven race winners
Farina was the only guy to beat him over a full season Fangio competed in apart from Ascari
Moss and Collins were no mugs
JYS - his first two years he was learning the ropes with Graham Hill as his teammate
His teammates were Peter Collins, Stirling Moss and Farina ..all proven race winners
Farina was the only guy to beat him over a full season Fangio competed in apart from Ascari
Moss and Collins were no mugs
JYS - his first two years he was learning the ropes with Graham Hill as his teammate
Il_leone
World Champion
teabagyokel
I should add in your criticism of Ricciardo
- a certain Nigel Mansell who lost to every teammate and Ron Dennis did not think much of him when Williams signed him and produced a video of all his crashes. Only when Mansell got in a quick car and was allowed to race did he prove he could mix it with the best much to Piquet's chagrin
I should add in your criticism of Ricciardo
- a certain Nigel Mansell who lost to every teammate and Ron Dennis did not think much of him when Williams signed him and produced a video of all his crashes. Only when Mansell got in a quick car and was allowed to race did he prove he could mix it with the best much to Piquet's chagrin
racecub
Champion Elect
RasputinLives . The rumours had it that before Lewis signed for Mercedes he was interested in a Red Bull drive, so he was clearly happy to pitch himself against Seb in equal machinery.
I think whichever out of Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso had the Red Bull for the last three years would be the one with the three( soon to become 4) championships.
I think whichever out of Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso had the Red Bull for the last three years would be the one with the three( soon to become 4) championships.
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